[Simh] 8-bit pseudocolor on modern Windows PC?

[Paul Hardy 2]

As a hobbyist, I successfully run VMS on a Simh emulated VAX (actually on a Raspberry Pi, but that’s irrelevant). I’m doing some software archeology trying to preserve some historic software which produced maps and charts on VAXstations and AlphaStations. This used 8-bit pseudocolor graphics, manipulating bit planes and colormaps. Variants of the software exist for VWS and for DECwindows/Motif.



A few years ago, I was successful in running the Motif version from a Windows PC running Cygwin/X, with a XDMCP session started using “-fullscreen -depth 8 -query myvax” to StartX.



However, I’ve recently tried again, on a more modern PC with Intel graphics and running Windows 10., and the Cygwin/X Xserver refuses to start.

[523428.531] winScreenInit - Using command line depth of 8 bpp

[523431.593] winAllocateFBShadowDDNL - Could not set full screen display mode: 80004001

[523434.671] winFinishScreenInitFB - Could not allocate framebuffer

[523437.734] (EE) InitOutput - Couldn't add screen 0(EE)



I also tried MobaXTerm with a similar result.



Removing the depth 8 lets the Motif session start, but the VMS software then can’t handle the colour drawing of the map (no planes available).



Reading around the intertubes, it seems that modern Windows graphics devices don’t support 8-bit pseudocolor, and although I can see mention of code being added to Cygwin to emulate pseudocolor under Truecolor, it doesn’t seem to be in the current version.



Of course, it would be an alternative (a better one) if Simh supported 8-bit graphics devices itself – e.g. the VCB02/QDSS Dragon board of the VAXStation/GPX, or the SPX graphics board. However as far I can see it is only the monochrome VCB01/QVSS supported.



So,

a) Does anyone know of an Xserver implementation that runs under Windows on a modern PC and supports depth 8 pseudocolor visuals?

b) Does anyone know of a SimH implementation of the VCB02/QDSS or SPX card?

c) any other ideas?





Regards,

[Clem Cole]

I know you want to do this will Windows, but have you explored a different
OS such as Mac OSx, FreeBSD or Linux on an Intel platform. I said this
because I think you may find more X support there. The later is now the
"home" for the X team and are more likely to get help from the developers
if you are using one of their native systems.

That said, I know that the RPi is a Linux box, but its not the native
development place for the X guys. I fear the X server on RPi is a subset
of the one for Intel, so it would not be surprising if support for things
like pseudo color are not longer in that implementation.

Anyway, I would at least try to see how far you can go with a UNIX style
implementation before I pushed too far at Windows. There are enough rough
edges in the Window support that its not surprising to me that they baled
on support some of the older features (i.e. its not how well the bear
dances).

Best wishes.

Post by Paul Hardy 2
As a hobbyist, I successfully run VMS on a Simh emulated VAX (actually on
a Raspberry Pi, but that’s irrelevant). I’m doing some software archeology
trying to preserve some historic software which produced maps and charts on
VAXstations and AlphaStations. This used 8-bit pseudocolor graphics,
manipulating bit planes and colormaps. Variants of the software exist for
VWS and for DECwindows/Motif.
A few years ago, I was successful in running the Motif version from a
Windows PC running Cygwin/X, with a XDMCP session started using
“-fullscreen -depth 8 -query myvax” to StartX.
However, I’ve recently tried again, on a more modern PC with Intel
graphics and running Windows 10., and the Cygwin/X Xserver refuses to start.
[523428.531] winScreenInit - Using command line depth of 8 bpp
[523431.593] winAllocateFBShadowDDNL - Could not set full screen display mode: 80004001
[523434.671] winFinishScreenInitFB - Could not allocate framebuffer
[523437.734] (EE) InitOutput - Couldn't add screen 0(EE)
I also tried MobaXTerm with a similar result.
Removing the depth 8 lets the Motif session start, but the VMS software
then can’t handle the colour drawing of the map (no planes available).
Reading around the intertubes, it seems that modern Windows graphics
devices don’t support 8-bit pseudocolor, and although I can see mention of
code being added to Cygwin to emulate pseudocolor under Truecolor, it
doesn’t seem to be in the current version.
Of course, it would be an alternative (a better one) if Simh supported
8-bit graphics devices itself – e.g. the VCB02/QDSS Dragon board of the
VAXStation/GPX, or the SPX graphics board. However as far I can see it is
only the monochrome VCB01/QVSS supported.
So,
a) Does anyone know of an Xserver implementation that runs under Windows
on a modern PC and supports depth 8 pseudocolor visuals?
b) Does anyone know of a SimH implementation of the VCB02/QDSS or SPX card?
c) any other ideas?
Regards,
--
Paul Hardy
Email: paul at the paulhardy.net domain, web: www.paulhardy.net
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh

[Robert Thomas]

Have you investigated using eXcursion? It was provided with VMS/OpenVMS distributions on the Pathworks CD.

To install it from the Pathworks CD, only install eXcursion. Do not attempt to install any other item from that CD. Once installed, zip the c:\WIN32APP directory. It contains everything necessary to run eXcursion. To install it on other Windows computers just unzip into c:\WIN32APP.

eXcursion runs well on all versions of Windows, e.g. Windows-10 64bit. It has limitations, e.g. only works on display 1, limited display types, and does not support many of the modern extensions to X, but has a very small footprint, does not use the registry, requires no special privileges and is reasoanbly fast.

FYI, the Itanium systems do not support 8-bit pseudocolor on their embedded graphics.

Robert Thomas

[Paul Hardy 2]

Robert Thomas said
Have you investigated using eXcursion? It was provided with VMS/OpenVMS distributions on the Pathworks CD.
...

Sounds interesting, but as a hobbyist, how can I get hold of the Pathworks CD, or a download of the eXcursion component from it?

Regards,

[Robert Thomas]

It is part of the OpenVMS distribution at least through VAX and AXP V7.3. It should be part of the hobbyist program.

It is a retired and unsupported product. HP never made any changes to it at least through V7.2. I seem to remember that V7.3 was under development but never completed.

Sincerely,
Robert F. Thomas

44 Industrial Way
Norwood, MA USA 02062
N Office Phone - [phone]
O mail to: ***@asthomas.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Hardy 2 [mailto:***@btinternet.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 12:12 PM
To: 'Robert Thomas' <***@asthomas.com>; ***@trailing-edge.com
Subject: RE: [Simh] 8-bit pseudocolor on modern Windows PC?

Robert Thomas said
Have you investigated using eXcursion? It was provided with VMS/OpenVMS distributions on the Pathworks CD.
...

Sounds interesting, but as a hobbyist, how can I get hold of the Pathworks CD, or a download of the eXcursion component from it?

Regards,

[Hittner, David T (IS)]

Pathworks 32 7.4 was the last published version and is certified for WinXP; the Pathworks 7.2 eXcursion X server never ran quite right on WinXP due to the screen driver changes.
Pathworks 32 7.4 also ran well on Win7 at least in basic mode - it was a bit weird with Aero themes or transparency enabled - I think I may have had to tweak the application video compatibility.
I haven't tried Pathworks 32 7.4 on Win10.

I left the unsupported Pathworks 32 environments for the supported Attachmate terminal emulator and Xwindow server.

FWIW, I seem to remember someone saying that PuTTY can do X pretty well with the free XMing X Server.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Simh [mailto:simh-***@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Robert Thomas
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 1:55 PM
To: 'Paul Hardy 2'; ***@trailing-edge.com
Subject: EXT :Re: [Simh] 8-bit pseudocolor on modern Windows PC?

It is part of the OpenVMS distribution at least through VAX and AXP V7.3. It should be part of the hobbyist program.

It is a retired and unsupported product. HP never made any changes to it at least through V7.2. I seem to remember that V7.3 was under development but never completed.

Sincerely,
Robert F. Thomas

44 Industrial Way
Norwood, MA USA 02062
N Office Phone - [phone]
O mail to: ***@asthomas.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Hardy 2 [mailto:***@btinternet.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 12:12 PM
To: 'Robert Thomas' <***@asthomas.com>; ***@trailing-edge.com
Subject: RE: [Simh] 8-bit pseudocolor on modern Windows PC?

Robert Thomas said
Have you investigated using eXcursion? It was provided with VMS/OpenVMS distributions on the Pathworks CD.
...

Sounds interesting, but as a hobbyist, how can I get hold of the Pathworks CD, or a download of the eXcursion component from it?

Regards,

--
Paul Hardy
Email: paul at the paulhardy.net domain, web: www.paulhardy.net



_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
***@trailing-edge.com
http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh

[Timothe Litt]

Post by Hittner, David T (IS)
Pathworks 32 7.4 was the last published version and is certified for WinXP; the Pathworks 7.2 eXcursion X server never ran quite right on WinXP due to the screen driver changes.
Pathworks 32 7.4 also ran well on Win7 at least in basic mode - it was a bit weird with Aero themes or transparency enabled - I think I may have had to tweak the application video compatibility.
I haven't tried Pathworks 32 7.4 on Win10.
I left the unsupported Pathworks 32 environments for the supported Attachmate terminal emulator and Xwindow server.
FWIW, I seem to remember someone saying that PuTTY can do X pretty well with the free XMing X Server.
Dave

XMing, the free version, hasn't been updated in years & has serious
issues with clipboard - tends to crash other apps.

I've recently switched to VcXsrv, which is more up-to-date, and open
source. I've had much better luck. It's based on xorg & seems
more active...Last release was last month.

That said, I haven't used either from SimH in recent memory. I do use X
heavily from my Linux Boxes.

Post by Hittner, David T (IS)
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 1:55 PM
Subject: EXT :Re: [Simh] 8-bit pseudocolor on modern Windows PC?
It is part of the OpenVMS distribution at least through VAX and AXP V7.3. It should be part of the hobbyist program.
It is a retired and unsupported product. HP never made any changes to it at least through V7.2. I seem to remember that V7.3 was under development but never completed.
Sincerely,
Robert F. Thomas
44 Industrial Way
Norwood, MA USA 02062
N Office Phone - [phone]
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 12:12 PM
Subject: RE: [Simh] 8-bit pseudocolor on modern Windows PC?

Robert Thomas said
Have you investigated using eXcursion? It was provided with VMS/OpenVMS distributions on the Pathworks CD.
...

Sounds interesting, but as a hobbyist, how can I get hold of the Pathworks CD, or a download of the eXcursion component from it?
Regards,

[Wilm Boerhout]

Post by Paul Hardy 2

Robert Thomas said
Have you investigated using eXcursion? It was provided with VMS/OpenVMS distributions on the Pathworks CD.
...

Sounds interesting, but as a hobbyist, how can I get hold of the Pathworks CD, or a download of the eXcursion component from it?
Regards,

I can send you a zip containing eXcursion 7.3.189. I needs no installer
on recent versions of Windows (I'm using 8.1 pro), just extract the zip
archive and run the server image. Send DM if you're interested.

I use it whenever I need to display X11 from VMS. Nothing fancy, but it
matches well fontwise.

/Wilm

[Paul Koning]

As a hobbyist, I successfully run VMS on a Simh emulated VAX (actually on a Raspberry Pi, but that’s irrelevant). I’m doing some software archeology trying to preserve some historic software which produced maps and charts on VAXstations and AlphaStations. This used 8-bit pseudocolor graphics, manipulating bit planes and colormaps. Variants of the software exist for VWS and for DECwindows/Motif.
...
So,
a) Does anyone know of an Xserver implementation that runs under Windows on a modern PC and supports depth 8 pseudocolor visuals?
b) Does anyone know of a SimH implementation of the VCB02/QDSS or SPX card?
c) any other ideas?

I'm curious what level of 8 bit color support is needed. There seem to be two rather different flavors.

1. Given a preset 256-entry color map, handle 8 bit indexed color. This would be quite easy. It's basically what happens when you display a GIF file.

2. Handle 8 bit color, *including* updating the look of the display dynamically if entries in the color map are changed. That would be harder. You'd have to keep a backing store of the 8-bit data, and regenerate the truecolor image whenever the color map is changed. Doable, but messy.

Is #2 actually important in practice?

paul

[Tom Morris]

Post by Paul Hardy 2

Post by Paul Hardy 2
As a hobbyist, I successfully run VMS on a Simh emulated VAX (actually

on a Raspberry Pi, but that’s irrelevant). I’m doing some software
archeology trying to preserve some historic software which produced maps
and charts on VAXstations and AlphaStations. This used 8-bit pseudocolor
graphics, manipulating bit planes and colormaps. Variants of the software
exist for VWS and for DECwindows/Motif.

Post by Paul Hardy 2
...
So,
a) Does anyone know of an Xserver implementation that runs under Windows

on a modern PC and supports depth 8 pseudocolor visuals?

Post by Paul Hardy 2
b) Does anyone know of a SimH implementation of the VCB02/QDSS or SPX

card?

Post by Paul Hardy 2
c) any other ideas?

I'm curious what level of 8 bit color support is needed. There seem to be
two rather different flavors.
1. Given a preset 256-entry color map, handle 8 bit indexed color. This
would be quite easy. It's basically what happens when you display a GIF
file.
2. Handle 8 bit color, *including* updating the look of the display
dynamically if entries in the color map are changed. That would be
harder. You'd have to keep a backing store of the 8-bit data, and
regenerate the truecolor image whenever the color map is changed. Doable,
but messy.
Is #2 actually important in practice?

Yes. That's how the X Window System works. Apps can use the color map for
animation and other effects.

I can't imagine doing SIMH emulation of the QDSS/Drag-on chip would be a
productive use of time. An implementation of PseudoColor visuals on
TrueColor displays in the XServer would be more widely useful.

There are some hints around the interwebs that VNC may present a path
forward, but I didn't chase down the leads.

Tom

[Paul Koning]

Post by Paul Koning
...
2. Handle 8 bit color, *including* updating the look of the display dynamically if entries in the color map are changed. That would be harder. You'd have to keep a backing store of the 8-bit data, and regenerate the truecolor image whenever the color map is changed. Doable, but messy.
Is #2 actually important in practice?
Yes. That's how the X Window System works. Apps can use the color map for animation and other effects.

Ok, makes sense.

Post by Paul Koning
I can't imagine doing SIMH emulation of the QDSS/Drag-on chip would be a productive use of time. An implementation of PseudoColor visuals on TrueColor displays in the XServer would be more widely useful.

I wonder: doing it in XServer is the same thing as what I described for #2. The only way to have it be simpler is with display hardware that has a color map, and it sounds like that's no longer done. Maybe I'm confused...

A Dragon chip emulation would enable running VAX display software. X of course, but also VAXWindows if you're so inclined.

paul

[Tom Morris]

Looks like we already discussed this a few years ago and someone had
actually started a QDSS emulator.

http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/pipermail/simh/2014-June/012922.html
http://9track.net/simh/video/

Not sure if they've made any progress since then, but I'd expect it to be a
pretty significant chunk of work.

Tom

Post by Paul Koning

Post by Paul Koning
...
2. Handle 8 bit color, *including* updating the look of the display

dynamically if entries in the color map are changed. That would be
harder. You'd have to keep a backing store of the 8-bit data, and
regenerate the truecolor image whenever the color map is changed. Doable,
but messy.

Post by Paul Koning
Is #2 actually important in practice?
Yes. That's how the X Window System works. Apps can use the color map

for animation and other effects.
Ok, makes sense.

Post by Paul Koning
I can't imagine doing SIMH emulation of the QDSS/Drag-on chip would be a

productive use of time. An implementation of PseudoColor visuals on
TrueColor displays in the XServer would be more widely useful.
I wonder: doing it in XServer is the same thing as what I described for
#2. The only way to have it be simpler is with display hardware that has a
color map, and it sounds like that's no longer done. Maybe I'm confused...
A Dragon chip emulation would enable running VAX display software. X of
course, but also VAXWindows if you're so inclined.
paul

[Paul Hardy 2]

Looks like we already discussed this a few years ago and someone had actually started a QDSS emulator.

Yes, I’d seen that previously. His web site doesn’t indicate any further progress though – no change since 2013. I’ll try copying in Matt Burke’s email to see.



Matt,

There is an active thread on Simh that could interest you - http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/pipermail/simh/2016-January/014438.html.



Regards,

[Paul Hardy 2]

Post by Paul Koning
2. Handle 8 bit color, *including* updating the look of the display dynamically if entries in the color map are changed. That would be harder.
You'd have to keep a backing store of the 8-bit data, and regenerate the truecolor image whenever the color map is changed. Doable, but messy.
Is #2 actually important in practice?

Well #2 is vital to me - the VMS software involved expects to be able to turn on and off and change colours of 'overlays' (implemented as one or more planes) such as a background raster image while keeping foreground vector map visible and doing dynamic temporary stuff in a 'refresh mode' plane.

Regards,