[Simh] DECserver (terminal server) emulation?

[Tim Stark]

Folks,



I have a great idea about DECserver emulator. Does anyone plan to emulate
one of DECserver series?



I discovered DS 200, 300 and 500 ROM images that I already downloaded some
time ago. DS 200 uses 68000 processor and DS 500 uses KDJ11-SD processor.



SIMH's existing 11/53 emulator can virtually be as DECserver 500 with that
DS500 ROM image.



SIMH's 11/53 emulator do not have ROM mapping for that ROM image. My copy of
KDJ11-SD CPU technical manual said that it requires 32K or 64K ROM image for
booting.

ROM image start at 17400000 through 17777777 (wrapping 128K ROM space with
I/O page at top).



I have plans to implement that on my MSE emulator. I am still working on it.
VAX emulation is almost finished.



Also, I found DS 200 tech docs through eBay. I finally found CI780 tech
docs!!!

I am still looking for DS 300 tech docs.



Any ideas?



Tim

[Ray Jewhurst]

Tim,
I have always wanted to see how many DEC machines could be emulated and
those would be great choices. I am not much of a coder but if you need help
with the other aspects of these, let me know where I can help. I have been
trying forever to get my butt moving and do work helping out with the help
and documentation of Simh and this may just be the kick in the pants I
need.

Thanks
Ray

Post by Tim Stark
Folks,
I have a great idea about DECserver emulator. Does anyone plan to emulate
one of DECserver series?
I discovered DS 200, 300 and 500 ROM images that I already downloaded some
time ago. DS 200 uses 68000 processor and DS 500 uses KDJ11-SD processor.
SIMH’s existing 11/53 emulator can virtually be as DECserver 500 with that
DS500 ROM image.
SIMH’s 11/53 emulator do not have ROM mapping for that ROM image. My copy
of KDJ11-SD CPU technical manual said that it requires 32K or 64K ROM image
for booting.
ROM image start at 17400000 through 17777777 (wrapping 128K ROM space with
I/O page at top).
I have plans to implement that on my MSE emulator. I am still working on
it. VAX emulation is almost finished.
Also, I found DS 200 tech docs through eBay. I finally found CI780 tech
docs!!!
I am still looking for DS 300 tech docs.
Any ideas?
Tim
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Simh mailing list
http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh

[Zane Healy]

If you did such emulation, would you include serial support, so a serial terminal could be attached to the computer running the emulator? If so, that would be seriously cool!

Zane

Post by Tim Stark
Folks,
I have a great idea about DECserver emulator. Does anyone plan to emulate one of DECserver series?
I discovered DS 200, 300 and 500 ROM images that I already downloaded some time ago. DS 200 uses 68000 processor and DS 500 uses KDJ11-SD processor.
SIMH’s existing 11/53 emulator can virtually be as DECserver 500 with that DS500 ROM image.
SIMH’s 11/53 emulator do not have ROM mapping for that ROM image. My copy of KDJ11-SD CPU technical manual said that it requires 32K or 64K ROM image for booting.
ROM image start at 17400000 through 17777777 (wrapping 128K ROM space with I/O page at top).
I have plans to implement that on my MSE emulator. I am still working on it. VAX emulation is almost finished.
Also, I found DS 200 tech docs through eBay. I finally found CI780 tech docs!!!
I am still looking for DS 300 tech docs.
Any ideas?
Tim
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Simh mailing list
http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh <http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh>

[Tim Stark]

I checked Amazon for any multi-serial port USB adaptors and found 4-port or 8-port serial USB adaptors.



Someday, I will try that. I will start with telnet server.



Tim



From: Zane Healy [mailto:***@aracnet.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2017 5:01 PM
To: Tim Stark <***@verizon.net>
Cc: ***@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] DECserver (terminal server) emulation?



If you did such emulation, would you include serial support, so a serial terminal could be attached to the computer running the emulator? If so, that would be seriously cool!



Zane

[Johnny Billquist]

Post by Tim Stark
Folks,
I have a great idea about DECserver emulator. Does anyone plan to
emulate one of DECserver series?
I discovered DS 200, 300 and 500 ROM images that I already downloaded
some time ago. DS 200 uses 68000 processor and DS 500 uses KDJ11-SD
processor.
SIMH’s existing 11/53 emulator can virtually be as DECserver 500 with
that DS500 ROM image.
SIMH’s 11/53 emulator do not have ROM mapping for that ROM image. My
copy of KDJ11-SD CPU technical manual said that it requires 32K or 64K
ROM image for booting.
ROM image start at 17400000 through 17777777 (wrapping 128K ROM space
with I/O page at top).
I have plans to implement that on my MSE emulator. I am still working on
it. VAX emulation is almost finished.
Also, I found DS 200 tech docs through eBay. I finally found CI780 tech
docs!!!
I am still looking for DS 300 tech docs.
Any ideas?

The roms for the DS100, DS200 and DS300 are only for booting. The actual
system is always downloaded over MOP, and the images are available.
Not sure what you intend to do with this, though. Isn't easier to just
write a LAT client, if you want that?
There even already exists one, although a bit buggy, if you are interested.

Johnny

[Tim Stark]

Yes, I know that. I have DS software for all DS servers (OpenVMS consolidation library).

Yes, That is a bug in DECnet for Linux. I tried to install it. When I attempted to access DECnet, Linux system instantly crashed.

That's why I like to emulate DS server for telnet server and multi-serial port USB adaptor.

Tim

-----Original Message-----
From: Simh [mailto:simh-***@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist
Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2017 5:55 PM
To: ***@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] DECserver (terminal server) emulation?

The roms for the DS100, DS200 and DS300 are only for booting. The actual system is always downloaded over MOP, and the images are available.
Not sure what you intend to do with this, though. Isn't easier to just write a LAT client, if you want that?
There even already exists one, although a bit buggy, if you are interested.

Johnny

[Johnny Billquist]

Post by Tim Stark
Yes, I know that. I have DS software for all DS servers (OpenVMS consolidation library).

Good. Because this is what you mostly need, not the roms, if you are to
emulate a DS.

Post by Tim Stark
Yes, That is a bug in DECnet for Linux. I tried to install it. When I attempted to access DECnet, Linux system instantly crashed.

Uh? DECnet have nothing to do with the DECservers...
They talk LAT, not DECnet. You bringing up DECnet or not will have no
bearing on your DECservers. Emulated or real.

Post by Tim Stark
That's why I like to emulate DS server for telnet server and multi-serial port USB adaptor.

You seem slightly confused about protocols here. ;-)

Johnny

[Richard]

Post by Tim Stark
Yes, I know that. I have DS software for all DS servers (OpenVMS
consolidation library).

Is this in a place I can mirror it? I'm trying to archive all the
relevant terminal related stuff via terminals-wiki, etc.

[Jim Carpenter]

On Apr 8, 2017 16:37, "Tim Stark" <***@verizon.net> wrote:

I have a great idea about DECserver emulator. Does anyone plan to emulate
one of DECserver series?


I have always wanted an emulator for a DECserver 500! My ISP only hands out
1 IP address so using NAT port forwarding to hang a DECserver off port 23
would be really nice. I may have other uses for it too. (No, I don't want a
real one. I have enough stuff here.)

SIMH’s existing 11/53 emulator can virtually be as DECserver 500 with that
DS500 ROM image.


I think when I looked real quick a couple years ago that SIMH can emulate
the CPU, the Ethernet controller, and even the equivalent of a CXY08
(RS232-C) line card.

Jim

[Johnny Billquist]

Post by Tim Stark
I have a great idea about DECserver emulator. Does anyone plan to
emulate one of DECserver series?
I have always wanted an emulator for a DECserver 500! My ISP only hands
out 1 IP address so using NAT port forwarding to hang a DECserver off
port 23 would be really nice. I may have other uses for it too. (No, I
don't want a real one. I have enough stuff here.)

Seems like you are trying to find complex solutions for simple problems.

Wouldn't it be easier to just write some small piece of software that
accepts incoming connections on the telnet port, and can let you connect
to other things without having to emulate a whole DECserver?

Johnny

[Jim Carpenter]

Post by Tim Stark
I have a great idea about DECserver emulator. Does anyone plan to
emulate one of DECserver series?
I have always wanted an emulator for a DECserver 500! My ISP only hands
out 1 IP address so using NAT port forwarding to hang a DECserver off
port 23 would be really nice. I may have other uses for it too. (No, I
don't want a real one. I have enough stuff here.)

Seems like you are trying to find complex solutions for simple problems.


For me it's a simple solution to a simple problem; Tim is the one doing all
the hard work. :)

Besides, if complexity scared me I would have picked a different hobby.



Wouldn't it be easier to just write some small piece of software that
accepts incoming connections on the telnet port, and can let you connect to
other things without having to emulate a whole DECserver?


Meh. I like the DECserver interface and I only need LAT. And as you said,
the Linux LAT isn't perfect.


I used DECservers in the past and want to use them again. It would just
make things feel right when I'm playing.

Jim

[Pontus Pihlgren]

Post by Jim Carpenter
Meh. I like the DECserver interface and I only need LAT. And as you said,
the Linux LAT isn't perfect.

Precisely, people complain about LAT in linux or the poor emulation of
glass terminals. Getting a DECserver and VT2x0 emulated should raise the
bar a bit.

/P

[Al Kossow]

Post by Pontus Pihlgren
Getting a DECserver and VT2x0 emulated should raise the
bar a bit.

I spent a lot of time over the last six months dumping terminal
firmware from various manufacturers. The problem is once you get
beyond 2681 era video controllers, they all use undocumented ASICs
for video timing and attribute control.

[Richard]

Post by Tim Stark
I have a great idea about DECserver emulator. Does anyone plan to emulate
one of DECserver series?
I discovered DS 200, 300 and 500 ROM images that I already downloaded some
time ago. DS 200 uses 68000 processor and DS 500 uses KDJ11-SD processor.

Oh, now I see, so ignore my previous email asking what you meant by
DS200/300/500. I didn't realize you were writing DS to mean DECserver.

I know with X terminals you need more than what's in the ROMs to get a
functioning unit because they boot over the network. Hopefully the
terminal servers aren't that complicated. Maybe they just load a
config off the network, if anything at all.

[Johnny Billquist]

Post by Richard

Post by Tim Stark
I have a great idea about DECserver emulator. Does anyone plan to emulate
one of DECserver series?
I discovered DS 200, 300 and 500 ROM images that I already downloaded some
time ago. DS 200 uses 68000 processor and DS 500 uses KDJ11-SD processor.

Oh, now I see, so ignore my previous email asking what you meant by
DS200/300/500. I didn't realize you were writing DS to mean DECserver.
I know with X terminals you need more than what's in the ROMs to get a
functioning unit because they boot over the network. Hopefully the
terminal servers aren't that complicated. Maybe they just load a
config off the network, if anything at all.

All the ROM contains is enough code to boot using MOP on the ethernet.
All the actual implementation of the DECserver itself is in the
downloaded image. The DS200 image, for example is close to 200 Kbytes.

Johnny

[Matt Burke]

Post by Tim Stark
I am still looking for DS 300 tech docs.

I can't find where I downloaded this from but here is the DECserver 300
Technical Description:

http://www.9track.net/decserver/ek-a0367-tm-001.pdf

Matt

[Richard]

Post by Matt Burke
I can't find where I downloaded this from but here is the DECserver 300
http://www.9track.net/decserver/ek-a0367-tm-001.pdf

Nice!

<https://manx-docs.org/details.php/1,455>

[khandy21yo]

Would it be easier to emulate a Dec server, or fix the Linux Decnet code?
If you had LAT working well under Linux, then writing a Dec server would be a simple she'll script. Well, maybe not real simple to get all the details right, but not too hard.


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A

Post by Jim Carpenter
Meh. I like the DECserver interface and I only need LAT. And as you said,
the Linux LAT isn't perfect.

Precisely, people complain about LAT in linux or the poor emulation of
glass terminals. Getting a DECserver and VT2x0 emulated should raise the
bar a bit.

/P

[Paul Koning]

Emulating a real server is probably harder. It all depends on what the goal is. If you emulate the server, you can run the server code on it, which means you get exactly what that code does -- bugs and all. If you implement LAT at the protocol level, it's an independent implementation with a distinct set of bugs.

It also depends on what you enjoy. You may pick the harder job because it's fun to do. For example, if you have a PDP-11 Fortran program, you could simply compile it with Linux Fortran and run it on your PC -- or you could compile it on your RT11 or RSTS or whatever PDP11 system and run "the real thing". Which one is right? They both are. Pick the one that floats your boat.

paul

Post by khandy21yo
Would it be easier to emulate a Dec server, or fix the Linux Decnet code?
If you had LAT working well under Linux, then writing a Dec server would be a simple she'll script. Well, maybe not real simple to get all the details right, but not too hard.

[Mark Pizzolato]

Post by Paul Koning
Emulating a real server is probably harder.

Well, maybe.... From my vague recollection, the DECServer 500 is a PDP11
system with Qbus serial and networking cards. It might be a mere
configuration exercise to get there (or almost there).

Post by Paul Koning
It all depends on what the goal is.
If you emulate the server, you can run the server code on it, which means you
get exactly what that code does -- bugs and all.

Simh's PDP11 might be a path to doing that.

- Mark

[Jim Carpenter]

Post by Mark Pizzolato

Post by Paul Koning
Emulating a real server is probably harder.

Well, maybe.... From my vague recollection, the DECServer 500 is a PDP11
system with Qbus serial and networking cards. It might be a mere
configuration exercise to get there (or almost there).

Post by Paul Koning
It all depends on what the goal is.
If you emulate the server, you can run the server code on it, which means you
get exactly what that code does -- bugs and all.

Simh's PDP11 might be a path to doing that.

I think you're right. Like I said above, I think Simh can already do
the 11/53 CPU, the DEQNA, and the CXY08. I don't think Simh could do
any other type of line card when I last checked but who cares. So with
a little Simh configuration, a MOP server and software, and the DS500
ROM it might just almost work. But I believe Tim's original message
said he couldn't get the ROM loaded.

Jim

[Mark Pizzolato]

Post by Jim Carpenter

Post by Mark Pizzolato

Post by Paul Koning
Emulating a real server is probably harder.

Well, maybe.... From my vague recollection, the DECServer 500 is a PDP11
system with Qbus serial and networking cards. It might be a mere
configuration exercise to get there (or almost there).

Post by Paul Koning
It all depends on what the goal is.
If you emulate the server, you can run the server code on it, which means

you

Post by Mark Pizzolato

Post by Paul Koning
get exactly what that code does -- bugs and all.

Simh's PDP11 might be a path to doing that.

I think you're right. Like I said above, I think Simh can already do
the 11/53 CPU, the DEQNA, and the CXY08. I don't think Simh could do
any other type of line card when I last checked but who cares. So with
a little Simh configuration, a MOP server and software, and the DS500
ROM it might just almost work. But I believe Tim's original message
said he couldn't get the ROM loaded.

Yes it doesn't have the actual DS500 ROM, BUT is that necessary?
The PDP11 simulator can do a DEQNA/DELQA MOP boot. It would seem
that this combined with a MOP server with the correct DS500 image
should be good enough since hopefully, the only purpose of the real
ROM is to support the setup of the device MOP boot. It would seem
reasonable that everything else would actually be provided in the
downloaded DS500 image....

- Mark

[Johnny Billquist]

The DS500 is a PDP-11, true. But it's also the model that don't have any
local storage, and thus uses MOP in way more ways than any other DS,
which might be a problem unless you have some machine with a proper MOP
implementation.
The MOP server that exists for Unix systems will not do. It only
supports booting.

Johnny

Post by Jim Carpenter

Post by Mark Pizzolato

Post by Paul Koning
Emulating a real server is probably harder.

Well, maybe.... From my vague recollection, the DECServer 500 is a PDP11
system with Qbus serial and networking cards. It might be a mere
configuration exercise to get there (or almost there).

Post by Paul Koning
It all depends on what the goal is.
If you emulate the server, you can run the server code on it, which means you
get exactly what that code does -- bugs and all.

Simh's PDP11 might be a path to doing that.

I think you're right. Like I said above, I think Simh can already do
the 11/53 CPU, the DEQNA, and the CXY08. I don't think Simh could do
any other type of line card when I last checked but who cares. So with
a little Simh configuration, a MOP server and software, and the DS500
ROM it might just almost work. But I believe Tim's original message
said he couldn't get the ROM loaded.
Jim
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[Paul Koning]

The DS500 is a PDP-11, true. But it's also the model that don't have any local storage, and thus uses MOP in way more ways than any other DS, which might be a problem unless you have some machine with a proper MOP implementation.
The MOP server that exists for Unix systems will not do. It only supports booting.

What else do you need? MOP doesn't do much more than that. Config data download?

In any case, MOP is a trivial protocol, fixing omissions in an existing MOP implementation is pretty easy.

Hm. mop.py? That would be nicely portable and easy to create...

paul

[Sergey Oboguev]

The MOP server that exists for Unix systems ... only supports booting.

What else do you need?  MOP doesn't do much more than that

Academically speaking, MOP also provides remote control, counters, memory dump, loopback testing.Whether any of this is "needed" is a matter of taste of course (just like virtually all retro-computing is).

[Johnny Billquist]

Post by Paul Koning

The DS500 is a PDP-11, true. But it's also the model that don't have any local storage, and thus uses MOP in way more ways than any other DS, which might be a problem unless you have some machine with a proper MOP implementation.
The MOP server that exists for Unix systems will not do. It only supports booting.

What else do you need? MOP doesn't do much more than that. Config data download?

Actually, it does. MOP can do reading and writing of data to files as
well. And it can support terminal traffic. I don't even have the
information on how this part of MOP works, all I know is that it does
work. In RSX, you have a program called CCR for the terminal traffic
(Console Carrier Request I think). RSX-11S systems can also do
crashdumps over MOP if they crash.

I know that you can use CCR on VMS as well, but I don't remember the
syntax. Might be some switch to SET HOST.

Post by Paul Koning
In any case, MOP is a trivial protocol, fixing omissions in an existing MOP implementation is pretty easy.

Possibly. I don't have all the details.

Post by Paul Koning
Hm. mop.py? That would be nicely portable and easy to create...

Feel free. :-)

Johnny

[Paul Koning]

Post by Paul Koning

The DS500 is a PDP-11, true. But it's also the model that don't have any local storage, and thus uses MOP in way more ways than any other DS, which might be a problem unless you have some machine with a proper MOP implementation.
The MOP server that exists for Unix systems will not do. It only supports booting.

What else do you need? MOP doesn't do much more than that. Config data download?

Actually, it does. MOP can do reading and writing of data to files as well.

Not really. There's a load protocol and a dump protocol. Load can reference the load image by ID string if enabled, but that doesn't make it a general file access protocol.

And it can support terminal traffic. I don't even have the information on how this part of MOP works, all I know is that it does work. In RSX, you have a program called CCR for the terminal traffic (Console Carrier Request I think). RSX-11S systems can also do crashdumps over MOP if they crash.
I know that you can use CCR on VMS as well, but I don't remember the syntax. Might be some switch to SET HOST.

The console carrier protocol, as well as all the other bits of MOP, are fully documented in the MOP architecture spec.

Post by Paul Koning
In any case, MOP is a trivial protocol, fixing omissions in an existing MOP implementation is pretty easy.

Possibly. I don't have all the details.

Post by Paul Koning
Hm. mop.py? That would be nicely portable and easy to create...

Feel free. :-)

Actually, parts of it (including console carrier) already exist in my Python DECnet stack. Not yet load/dump, though.

paul

[Johnny Billquist]

Post by Paul Koning

Post by Paul Koning

The DS500 is a PDP-11, true. But it's also the model that don't have any local storage, and thus uses MOP in way more ways than any other DS, which might be a problem unless you have some machine with a proper MOP implementation.
The MOP server that exists for Unix systems will not do. It only supports booting.

What else do you need? MOP doesn't do much more than that. Config data download?

Actually, it does. MOP can do reading and writing of data to files as well.

Not really. There's a load protocol and a dump protocol. Load can reference the load image by ID string if enabled, but that doesn't make it a general file access protocol.

I agree that I would not call it a generic file access protocol. But
still, this is how the DS500 load and store the configuration.

Johnny

[Cory Smelosky]

Does anyone have DECserver firmware source listings I wonder?

[Kevin Handy]

A simh VMS system should work like the real thing. Just cnfigure it as you
would for a real decserver, and it should work just fine. I think I did
this for a Decserver-200 once so I could test to see if the 200 worked.

Post by Cory Smelosky
Does anyone have DECserver firmware source listings I wonder?
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[Gary Lee Phillips]

Surely a SimH PDP or VAX on another host (or even the same one) could
provide a well-featured MOP server?

--Gary

Post by Johnny Billquist
The DS500 is a PDP-11, true. But it's also the model that don't have any
local storage, and thus uses MOP in way more ways than any other DS,
which might be a problem unless you have some machine with a proper MOP
implementation.
The MOP server that exists for Unix systems will not do. It only
supports booting.
Johnny

[Johnny Billquist]

Post by Gary Lee Phillips
Surely a SimH PDP or VAX on another host (or even the same one) could
provide a well-featured MOP server?

Yes. It should...

Johnny

Post by Gary Lee Phillips
--Gary

Post by Johnny Billquist
The DS500 is a PDP-11, true. But it's also the model that don't have any
local storage, and thus uses MOP in way more ways than any other DS,
which might be a problem unless you have some machine with a proper MOP
implementation.
The MOP server that exists for Unix systems will not do. It only
supports booting.
Johnny

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[Mark Pizzolato]

A simh VMS host will work just fine for any DECserver MOP activity.

- Mark

On Apr 12, 2017 3:40 PM, Kevin Handy <***@gmail.com> wrote:
A simh VMS system should work like the real thing. Just cnfigure it as you would for a real decserver, and it should work just fine. I think I did this for a Decserver-200 once so I could test to see if the 200 worked.

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Cory Smelosky <***@gewt.net<mailto:***@gewt.net>> wrote:
Does anyone have DECserver firmware source listings I wonder?

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