Discussion:
[Simh] VMware "internal network" and VAX mop frames
gérard Calliet
2018-02-21 09:58:16 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

It's not specifically a simh question, but I hope someone had experience
about the issue.

I have a VAX VMS on a SIMH on a Windows VMware instance which uses a
dedicated NIC for simh.

I have an OpenVMS on an AlphaVM emulator on another Windows VMware
instance (on the same VMware server) which uses another dedicated NIC
for the emulator.

(The dedicated NIC have no associated protocol (for example ip) ).

I try a network boot from vax vms simh, which could be served by the
emulated OpenVMS alpha emulated. I can see the mop broadcasted frames on
the wire, outside on the VMware server, but they don't arrive at the NIC
at the host instance of the alpha emulation.

I think something is filtered out inside the VMware server between its
instances. I don't know more.

Thanks,

Gérard Calliet


---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Dave L
2018-02-21 10:04:36 UTC
Permalink
Do you have the relevant NICs set in promiscuous mode?



On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 09:58:16 -0000, gérard Calliet
Post by gérard Calliet
Hello,
It's not specifically a simh question, but I hope someone had experience
about the issue.
I have a VAX VMS on a SIMH on a Windows VMware instance which uses a
dedicated NIC for simh.
I have an OpenVMS on an AlphaVM emulator on another Windows VMware
instance (on the same VMware server) which uses another dedicated NIC
for the emulator.
(The dedicated NIC have no associated protocol (for example ip) ).
I try a network boot from vax vms simh, which could be served by the
emulated OpenVMS alpha emulated. I can see the mop broadcasted frames on
the wire, outside on the VMware server, but they don't arrive at the NIC
at the host instance of the alpha emulation.
I think something is filtered out inside the VMware server between its
instances. I don't know more.
Thanks,
Gérard Calliet
---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le
logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
--
gérard Calliet
2018-02-21 10:08:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave L
Do you have the relevant NICs set in promiscuous mode?
yes
Post by Dave L
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 09:58:16 -0000, gérard Calliet
Post by gérard Calliet
Hello,
It's not specifically a simh question, but I hope someone had
experience about the issue.
I have a VAX VMS on a SIMH on a Windows VMware instance which uses a
dedicated NIC for simh.
I have an OpenVMS on an AlphaVM emulator on another Windows VMware
instance (on the same VMware server) which uses another dedicated NIC
for the emulator.
(The dedicated NIC have no associated protocol (for example ip) ).
I try a network boot from vax vms simh, which could be served by the
emulated OpenVMS alpha emulated. I can see the mop broadcasted frames
on the wire, outside on the VMware server, but they don't arrive at
the NIC at the host instance of the alpha emulation.
I think something is filtered out inside the VMware server between
its instances. I don't know more.
Thanks,
Gérard Calliet
---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par
le logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
--
---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Jean-Claude Parel
2018-02-21 11:03:32 UTC
Permalink
Hello, gerard

What is the MAC address of the VAX machine emulated by SIMH ? Is it
different from the MAC address of the VMware VM interface used by SIMH ?

Cordialement/Regards



Jean-Claude Parel
21, Chemin De La Sauvegarde

OpenVMS Architect
Ecully, 69132
458601
France
Global Business Services


Phone:
+33-4-7218-4095


Home:
+33-4-7558-3550


Mobile:
+33-6.7171.0434


e-mail:
***@fr.ibm.com






From: "gérard Calliet" <***@pia-sofer.fr>
To: "***@trailing-edge.com" <***@trailing-edge.com>
Date: 21/02/2018 10:58
Subject: [Simh] VMware "internal network" and VAX mop frames
Sent by: "Simh" <simh-***@trailing-edge.com>



Hello,

It's not specifically a simh question, but I hope someone had experience
about the issue.

I have a VAX VMS on a SIMH on a Windows VMware instance which uses a
dedicated NIC for simh.

I have an OpenVMS on an AlphaVM emulator on another Windows VMware
instance (on the same VMware server) which uses another dedicated NIC
for the emulator.

(The dedicated NIC have no associated protocol (for example ip) ).

I try a network boot from vax vms simh, which could be served by the
emulated OpenVMS alpha emulated. I can see the mop broadcasted frames on
the wire, outside on the VMware server, but they don't arrive at the NIC
at the host instance of the alpha emulation.

I think something is filtered out inside the VMware server between its
instances. I don't know more.

Thanks,

Gérard Calliet


---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le
logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_antivirus&d=DwIGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=2AoVEMvcRW1lMiTIMmGiShO4dQKZolvsh1Oz2GpyULA&m=XJN-harnIlfiy6Nm-UhdbwliUFRRucDv2U-bzwbCYRQ&s=nz4R8EpTNJBF6xyv0wErluHvMAyk_Q0r9mG5k-b5P7o&e=
gérard Calliet
2018-02-21 11:21:55 UTC
Permalink
Hello Jean-Claude,

The  MAC address of the emulated VAX machine has the value AA-00-04-...
which will be the result of the calculated DECNET address, and it is the
same address for the VMware NIC used.

Cordialement

Gérard Calliet
Post by Jean-Claude Parel
Hello, gerard
What is the MAC address of the VAX machine emulated by SIMH ? Is it
different from the MAC address of the VMware VM interface used by SIMH ?
Cordialement/Regards
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Jean-Claude Parel*  21, Chemin De La Sauvegarde
OpenVMS Architect  Ecully, 69132
458601  France
Global Business Services
Phone: +33-4-7218-4095
Home: +33-4-7558-3550
Mobile: +33-6.7171.0434
Date: 21/02/2018 10:58
Subject: [Simh] VMware "internal network" and VAX mop frames
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
It's not specifically a simh question, but I hope someone had experience
about the issue.
I have a VAX VMS on a SIMH on a Windows VMware instance which uses a
dedicated NIC for simh.
I have an OpenVMS on an AlphaVM emulator on another Windows VMware
instance (on the same VMware server) which uses another dedicated NIC
for the emulator.
(The dedicated NIC have no associated protocol (for example ip) ).
I try a network boot from vax vms simh, which could be served by the
emulated OpenVMS alpha emulated. I can see the mop broadcasted frames on
the wire, outside on the VMware server, but they don't arrive at the NIC
at the host instance of the alpha emulation.
I think something is filtered out inside the VMware server between its
instances. I don't know more.
Thanks,
Gérard Calliet
---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le
logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_antivirus&d=DwIGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=2AoVEMvcRW1lMiTIMmGiShO4dQKZolvsh1Oz2GpyULA&m=XJN-harnIlfiy6Nm-UhdbwliUFRRucDv2U-bzwbCYRQ&s=nz4R8EpTNJBF6xyv0wErluHvMAyk_Q0r9mG5k-b5P7o&e=
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mailman.trailing-2Dedge.com_mailman_listinfo_simh&d=DwIGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=2AoVEMvcRW1lMiTIMmGiShO4dQKZolvsh1Oz2GpyULA&m=XJN-harnIlfiy6Nm-UhdbwliUFRRucDv2U-bzwbCYRQ&s=fET4HvAPyJKsZTmohu6n7eViPn81g7Dm1g00AnRnZdY&e=
---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Jean-Claude Parel
2018-02-21 11:34:07 UTC
Permalink
Therefore, i suppose the AA-00-04 mac address is the one used in the LANCP
or MOP client database on the Alphaserver side. Am i right ?

Cordialement/Regards



Jean-Claude Parel
21, Chemin De La Sauvegarde

OpenVMS Architect
Ecully, 69132
458601
France
Global Business Services


Phone:
+33-4-7218-4095


Home:
+33-4-7558-3550


Mobile:
+33-6.7171.0434


e-mail:
***@fr.ibm.com






From: "gérard Calliet" <***@pia-sofer.fr>
To: Jean-Claude Parel <***@fr.ibm.com>
Cc: "***@trailing-edge.com" <***@trailing-edge.com>
Date: 21/02/2018 12:22
Subject: Re: [Simh] VMware "internal network" and VAX mop frames



Hello Jean-Claude,
The MAC address of the emulated VAX machine has the value AA-00-04-...
which will be the result of the calculated DECNET address, and it is the
same address for the VMware NIC used.
Cordialement
Gérard Calliet

Le 21/02/2018 à 12:03, Jean-Claude Parel a écrit :
Hello, gerard

What is the MAC address of the VAX machine emulated by SIMH ? Is it
different from the MAC address of the VMware VM interface used by SIMH ?

Cordialement/Regards


Jean-Claude Parel
21, Chemin De La Sauvegarde

OpenVMS Architect
Ecully, 69132
458601
France
Global Business Services


Phone:
+33-4-7218-4095


Home:
+33-4-7558-3550


Mobile:
+33-6.7171.0434


e-mail:
***@fr.ibm.com







From: "gérard Calliet" <***@pia-sofer.fr>
To: "***@trailing-edge.com" <***@trailing-edge.com>
Date: 21/02/2018 10:58
Subject: [Simh] VMware "internal network" and VAX mop frames
Sent by: "Simh" <simh-***@trailing-edge.com>



Hello,

It's not specifically a simh question, but I hope someone had experience
about the issue.

I have a VAX VMS on a SIMH on a Windows VMware instance which uses a
dedicated NIC for simh.

I have an OpenVMS on an AlphaVM emulator on another Windows VMware
instance (on the same VMware server) which uses another dedicated NIC
for the emulator.

(The dedicated NIC have no associated protocol (for example ip) ).

I try a network boot from vax vms simh, which could be served by the
emulated OpenVMS alpha emulated. I can see the mop broadcasted frames on
the wire, outside on the VMware server, but they don't arrive at the NIC
at the host instance of the alpha emulation.

I think something is filtered out inside the VMware server between its
instances. I don't know more.

Thanks,

Gérard Calliet


---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le
logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_antivirus&d=DwIGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=2AoVEMvcRW1lMiTIMmGiShO4dQKZolvsh1Oz2GpyULA&m=XJN-harnIlfiy6Nm-UhdbwliUFRRucDv2U-bzwbCYRQ&s=nz4R8EpTNJBF6xyv0wErluHvMAyk_Q0r9mG5k-b5P7o&e=


_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
***@trailing-edge.com
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mailman.trailing-2Dedge.com_mailman_listinfo_simh&d=DwIGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=2AoVEMvcRW1lMiTIMmGiShO4dQKZolvsh1Oz2GpyULA&m=XJN-harnIlfiy6Nm-UhdbwliUFRRucDv2U-bzwbCYRQ&s=fET4HvAPyJKsZTmohu6n7eViPn81g7Dm1g00AnRnZdY&e=









L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le
logiciel antivirus Avast.
www.avast.com
Timothe Litt
2018-02-21 14:08:00 UTC
Permalink
I can't think of anything that would fail if the ROM address is the same
as the DECnet address (which is what you're setting up), but no real
hardware could ever have been configured that way.  (It is possible for
software to obtain both, though only one goes on the wire.  One set by
software overrides the ROM, which is globally unique.)

The VAX would not normally have a DECnet MAC address when doing a MOP
boot; the MAC address can't be determined until the SYSBOOT parameters
are read. 

The normal flow would be that the interface announces its ROM MAC
address via MOP, and uses that address when sending LOAD requests.  The
MAC address is changed when the cluster or DECnet driver takes over.

I'm not a VMware user, so they may use different terminology than the
following.

So VMware would need to understand that a MAC address can be changed -
more recent OSs don't set the MAC address, so it could be confused.  I
wouldn't be surprised if it acted like a switch & tried to filter
"unneeded" packets.

You do need to make sure that VMware isn't modifying packets - that is,
you want a bridged configuration, not one where VMware is free to modify
packets (e.g. NAT).  And that VMware isn't setup to isolate VMs. 
"Bridged", "shared LAN", same VLAN  - something like that is what you
want. 

Also, DECnet uses several protocol types (a field in the ethernet
packet).  You will need to make sure that VMware is passing all of
them.  It, or some firewall, may block "unknown" protocol types.  DECnet
(+MOP+VAXcluster's SCS) may be forgotten or blocked. The basic DECnet
protocol types are in the range 60-00 through 60-09; 80-38 through 80-41
& -48 are used by LAT, DTSS & a few others.  Check the Windows firewalls.

Of course, if you run IP, you also need IP, IPv6, ARP, etc - but I
wouldn't expect VMware to have a problem with them.
Post by gérard Calliet
Hello Jean-Claude,
The  MAC address of the emulated VAX machine has the value
AA-00-04-... which will be the result of the calculated DECNET
address, and it is the same address for the VMware NIC used.
Cordialement
Gérard Calliet
Post by Jean-Claude Parel
Hello, gerard
What is the MAC address of the VAX machine emulated by SIMH ? Is it
different from the MAC address of the VMware VM interface used by SIMH ?
Cordialement/Regards
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Jean-Claude Parel*  21, Chemin De La Sauvegarde
OpenVMS Architect  Ecully, 69132
458601  France
Global Business Services  
Phone: +33-4-7218-4095  
Home: +33-4-7558-3550  
Mobile: +33-6.7171.0434  
Date:        21/02/2018 10:58
Subject:        [Simh] VMware "internal network" and VAX mop frames
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
It's not specifically a simh question, but I hope someone had experience
about the issue.
I have a VAX VMS on a SIMH on a Windows VMware instance which uses a
dedicated NIC for simh.
I have an OpenVMS on an AlphaVM emulator on another Windows VMware
instance (on the same VMware server) which uses another dedicated NIC
for the emulator.
(The dedicated NIC have no associated protocol (for example ip) ).
I try a network boot from vax vms simh, which could be served by the
emulated OpenVMS alpha emulated. I can see the mop broadcasted frames on
the wire, outside on the VMware server, but they don't arrive at the NIC
at the host instance of the alpha emulation.
I think something is filtered out inside the VMware server between its
instances. I don't know more.
Thanks,
Gérard Calliet
---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par
le logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_antivirus&d=DwIGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=2AoVEMvcRW1lMiTIMmGiShO4dQKZolvsh1Oz2GpyULA&m=XJN-harnIlfiy6Nm-UhdbwliUFRRucDv2U-bzwbCYRQ&s=nz4R8EpTNJBF6xyv0wErluHvMAyk_Q0r9mG5k-b5P7o&e=
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mailman.trailing-2Dedge.com_mailman_listinfo_simh&d=DwIGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=2AoVEMvcRW1lMiTIMmGiShO4dQKZolvsh1Oz2GpyULA&m=XJN-harnIlfiy6Nm-UhdbwliUFRRucDv2U-bzwbCYRQ&s=fET4HvAPyJKsZTmohu6n7eViPn81g7Dm1g00AnRnZdY&e=
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Paul Koning
2018-02-21 14:57:42 UTC
Permalink
I can't think of anything that would fail if the ROM address is the same as the DECnet address (which is what you're setting up), but no real hardware could ever have been configured that way. (It is possible for software to obtain both, though only one goes on the wire. One set by software overrides the ROM, which is globally unique.)
Most of the later DEC NICs support multiple MAC addresses, with the ROM address as the default. On such NICs, MOP and LAT (and possibly other protocols) use the ROM address, while DECnet Phase IV would use the HIORD style address. A few older NICs, for example the DEUNA, don't have this capability and for those the MAC address changes for everyone as soon as you turn on DECnet.
...
I'm not a VMware user, so they may use different terminology than the following.
So VMware would need to understand that a MAC address can be changed - more recent OSs don't set the MAC address, so it could be confused. I wouldn't be surprised if it acted like a switch & tried to filter "unneeded" packets.
That's definitely a possible issue. Another possibility is that multicast isn't supported properly. All NICs support broadcast, because otherwise IP would not work, but multicast is not so commonly used. DECnet uses it everywhere, though, and requires it to be there.

I remember some discussions about trouble if you use a wireless LAN as opposed to a wired NIC, but I don't remember any details.

paul
Dave L
2018-02-21 15:14:37 UTC
Permalink
Have you tried not setting a MAC address on the VMware NIC/switches? Which
NIC type are you presenting to the VM. E1000 is probably the best option
tho VMXNET3 should work too once VMware tools is loaded (E1000 you can get
away without or survive if tools dies for any reason).

On the Alpha side are you running the appropriate PCAP driver on the host
OS, winwoes not interfering by applying any of its protocols on the NIC
and also have the VM switch/ports to accept promiscuos+MAC change+forged
transmits?

Not sure if this guide will help:
http://www.migrationspecialties.com/pdf/VirtualAlpha_UserGuide.pdf
Post by Paul Koning
Post by Timothe Litt
I can't think of anything that would fail if the ROM address is the
same as the DECnet address (which is what you're setting up), but no
real hardware could ever have been configured that way. (It is
possible for software to obtain both, though only one goes on the
wire. One set by software overrides the ROM, which is globally unique.)
Most of the later DEC NICs support multiple MAC addresses, with the ROM
address as the default. On such NICs, MOP and LAT (and possibly other
protocols) use the ROM address, while DECnet Phase IV would use the
HIORD style address. A few older NICs, for example the DEUNA, don't
have this capability and for those the MAC address changes for everyone
as soon as you turn on DECnet.
Post by Timothe Litt
...
I'm not a VMware user, so they may use different terminology than the following.
So VMware would need to understand that a MAC address can be changed -
more recent OSs don't set the MAC address, so it could be confused. I
wouldn't be surprised if it acted like a switch & tried to filter
"unneeded" packets.
That's definitely a possible issue. Another possibility is that
multicast isn't supported properly. All NICs support broadcast, because
otherwise IP would not work, but multicast is not so commonly used.
DECnet uses it everywhere, though, and requires it to be there.
I remember some discussions about trouble if you use a wireless LAN as
opposed to a wired NIC, but I don't remember any details.
paul
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--
Timothe Litt
2018-02-21 15:51:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Koning
I remember some discussions about trouble if you use a wireless LAN as opposed to a wired NIC, but I don't remember any details.
The short answer is that wireless routers assume that the only
worthwhile protocols are IP/ARP & some VPN tunnels, and that a client
has exactly one endpoint.

Many (most?) wireless routers assume that a client has a single MAC
address.  SimH packets will have one/emulated NIC; the host (client)
packets will have another.  The router will keep track of the MAC
address used for associating with the access point (the host's), and
drop any other (on the theory that it saves bandwidth - with one
MAC/client, "anything else is a waste").  The assumption is violated by
SimH. 

Support for non-IP protocol types is also problematic with some wireless
routers.

The first problem could be solved if wireless NICs had a promiscuous
mode (multiple associations could fool the router).  Unfortunately, as
anyone who's ever tried to get a wireless packet trace knows, wireless
NICs that do promiscuous mode are rare (and expensive).  And of those,
ones that support promiscuous transmit are rarer and pricier.

The only practical solution is to tunnel all the SimH frames over an IP
connection to the wired LAN.  (Or, if you are trying wireless simh to
wireless simh, between the wireless host nodes.  I think someone figured
out how to do this, but I've never bothered.

gérard Calliet
2018-02-21 15:16:26 UTC
Permalink
Thanks to all the answers. The issue was resolved changing on VMware the
NIC type adapters from VMXNET3 to E1000.

It was the recommanded by EmuVM NIC type . I recommand, too :)

Thanks

Gérard Calliet
Post by Timothe Litt
I can't think of anything that would fail if the ROM address is the
same as the DECnet address (which is what you're setting up), but no
real hardware could ever have been configured that way.  (It is
possible for software to obtain both, though only one goes on the
wire.  One set by software overrides the ROM, which is globally unique.)
The VAX would not normally have a DECnet MAC address when doing a MOP
boot; the MAC address can't be determined until the SYSBOOT parameters
are read.
The normal flow would be that the interface announces its ROM MAC
address via MOP, and uses that address when sending LOAD requests. 
The MAC address is changed when the cluster or DECnet driver takes over.
I'm not a VMware user, so they may use different terminology than the
following.
So VMware would need to understand that a MAC address can be changed -
more recent OSs don't set the MAC address, so it could be confused.  I
wouldn't be surprised if it acted like a switch & tried to filter
"unneeded" packets.
You do need to make sure that VMware isn't modifying packets - that
is, you want a bridged configuration, not one where VMware is free to
modify packets (e.g. NAT).  And that VMware isn't setup to isolate
VMs.  "Bridged", "shared LAN", same VLAN  - something like that is
what you want.
Also, DECnet uses several protocol types (a field in the ethernet
packet).  You will need to make sure that VMware is passing all of
them.  It, or some firewall, may block "unknown" protocol types.
DECnet (+MOP+VAXcluster's SCS) may be forgotten or blocked. The basic
DECnet protocol types are in the range 60-00 through 60-09; 80-38
through 80-41 & -48 are used by LAT, DTSS & a few others.  Check the
Windows firewalls.
Of course, if you run IP, you also need IP, IPv6, ARP, etc - but I
wouldn't expect VMware to have a problem with them.
Post by gérard Calliet
Hello Jean-Claude,
The  MAC address of the emulated VAX machine has the value
AA-00-04-... which will be the result of the calculated DECNET
address, and it is the same address for the VMware NIC used.
Cordialement
Gérard Calliet
Post by Jean-Claude Parel
Hello, gerard
What is the MAC address of the VAX machine emulated by SIMH ? Is it
different from the MAC address of the VMware VM interface used by SIMH ?
Cordialement/Regards
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Jean-Claude Parel*  21, Chemin De La Sauvegarde
OpenVMS Architect  Ecully, 69132
458601  France
Global Business Services
Phone: +33-4-7218-4095
Home: +33-4-7558-3550
Mobile: +33-6.7171.0434
Date: 21/02/2018 10:58
Subject: [Simh] VMware "internal network" and VAX mop frames
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
It's not specifically a simh question, but I hope someone had experience
about the issue.
I have a VAX VMS on a SIMH on a Windows VMware instance which uses a
dedicated NIC for simh.
I have an OpenVMS on an AlphaVM emulator on another Windows VMware
instance (on the same VMware server) which uses another dedicated NIC
for the emulator.
(The dedicated NIC have no associated protocol (for example ip) ).
I try a network boot from vax vms simh, which could be served by the
emulated OpenVMS alpha emulated. I can see the mop broadcasted frames on
the wire, outside on the VMware server, but they don't arrive at the NIC
at the host instance of the alpha emulation.
I think something is filtered out inside the VMware server between its
instances. I don't know more.
Thanks,
Gérard Calliet
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