Discussion:
[Simh] Getting rsxs to run on the pdp11 emulator
Bill Cunningham
2015-03-03 03:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Is there an instruction sheet anywhere for simh to load the rsx OS I
think it's rsx-11m to use with the pdp11 simh emulator?

Bill
Vorländer, Martin
2015-03-03 07:39:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Cunningham
Is there an instruction sheet anywhere for simh to load the rsx OS I
think it's rsx-11m to use with the pdp11 simh emulator?
I once found http://home.earthlink.net/~n1be/pdp11/PDP11.html
but haven’t yet had the time to try and follow the instructions.

cu,
Martin
Rhialto
2015-03-03 10:24:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vorländer, Martin
Post by Bill Cunningham
Is there an instruction sheet anywhere for simh to load the rsx OS I
think it's rsx-11m to use with the pdp11 simh emulator?
I once found http://home.earthlink.net/~n1be/pdp11/PDP11.html
but haven?t yet had the time to try and follow the instructions.
That isn't the latest Y2k-clean version unfortunately.

The tape images on trailing edge for rsx-11m plus 4.6 are seemingly
unusable. One can boot them but then restoring them to a disk fails.
I wonder if these are still corruped by the wrong tape reading, as I
read about in the pdp11 newsgroup.

These are the corrupted tape files. BRU doesn't seem to like either of
them.

BB-J0830-01.M01_RSX11M+_V4.6_1999.tap
BB-J0830-01.L01_RSX11M+_V4.6_BRU_1999.tap
from
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/rsx11mplus/

At ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/rsxdists/rsx11mplus_4_6_bl87_dsk.zip
is a disk image but
http://www.retrocmp.com/how-tos/getting-rsx11m-running-on-simh/203-rsx11m-on-simh-a-quest-for-the-unique-blinking-lights-of-rsx
(and the few next blog entries) describe how to fix that one for actual
use.

I did that, a bit modified. Also, the disk image has been sysgenned
already once, so the autoconfiguration doesn't work.

These are my modifications to to the procedure described in "RSX11M+ on
SIMH - The Problem With RSX File Headers".

The author creates a target disk image, to copy all the files from the
original one. It's the rsx11mpbl_mxf.dsk file. However for this he uses
a copy of the original disk image. While that works, and gets you a file
of the correct size, it seems a bit messy to me. I used a zero-filled
target disk image. Or even a non-existent one; simh will just create it
when starting.

Another change is that I chose a 11/94 as model, instead of 11/93. That
fit better with the config file I had around: it has a Unibus so you can
attach some more disk types.

Now if you want to run sysgen on your shiny new RSX, you'll discover it
won't offer autoconfiguration of your hardware. That is a sore lack,
since typing in all the details is a pain and can easily go wrong if
you're not practiced in it yet. However I discovered that the problem is
that the disk image has had a sysgen operation already. The resulting
multi-user system file won't allow autoconfiguration any more (which is
actually explained in the sysgen documentation, once you find it).
Fortunately the original system file is still on the disk (initially it
boots with system files in a different directory than what you
Post by Vorländer, Martin
dir [*]rsx11m.sys
Directory DU0:[001054]
17-JAN-15 02:30

RSX11M.SYS;1 1026. C 03-NOV-99 18:01

Total of 1026./1026. blocks in 1. file


Directory DU0:[002054]
17-JAN-15 02:30

RSX11M.SYS;1 498. C 18-DEC-98 02:47

Total of 498./498. blocks in 1. file

Grand total of 1524./1524. blocks in 2. files in 2. directories
Post by Vorländer, Martin
boot DU0:[002054]RSX11M.SYS
RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6 BL87 1920.KW System:"Baseline"
Post by Vorländer, Martin
MOU DU0:"RSX11MPBL87"
@[2,54]BASTART.CMD
SET -- Crash device MM000: has been successfully loaded
...etc...

When running sysgen you should then get this
(instead of what's shown in Appendix F at http://retrocmp.com/how-tos/getting-rsx11m-running-on-simh/207-rsx11m-on-simh-a-sample-sysgen-session )

M>* SU090 Enter the name of the disk drive containing your
Post by Vorländer, Martin
;
;
; The Autoconfigure procedure will attempt to determine your peripheral
; configuration by examining the device registers contained in the I/O
; page. Autoconfigure will print a table of those devices which it
; finds. You can either use the Autoconfigure results directly, or
; you can override them.
;
; If you answer Yes to the following question, SYSGEN will run
; Autoconfigure. If no results are printed within a few minutes,
; Autoconfigure has failed and you should reboot your system and
; restart the SYSGEN. Next time do not use Autoconfigure.
;
; Note: If you have already run a PREPGEN or SYSGEN during which you
; ran Autoconfigure, and you are using the saved answer files from that
; GEN, it is not necessary to run Autoconfigure again.
;
* SU100 Do you want to run Autoconfigure on the host system
* hardware? [Y/N D:N]: y
;
;
ACF
ACO SHOW
Processor Type: 11/70 Memory Size: 1920. Kw

Options:

Floating Point Processor (FP11)
Extended Instruction Set (EIS)
Extended (22-Bit) Addressing
Switch Register (SWR)
Display Register
Cache Memory
Parity Memory

Name Vector CSR Unit Type Remark
RHA 204 172040
0 RS04
RHB 224 172440
0_0 TE16 TM03
0_1 TE16 TM03
0_2 TE16 TM03
0_3 TE16 TM03
RHC 254 176700
0 RM05
1 RM05
2 RM05
3 RM05
DMA 210 177440
0 RK06
1 RK06
DUA 154 172150
0 RD54
1 RD54
2 RD54
3 RX50
LPA 200 177514
YLA 060 177560
YVA 300 160440
YVB 310 160460
YVC 320 160500
YVD 330 160520
Post by Vorländer, Martin
ACO SYSGEN
;
; If you choose to override the Autoconfigure results, SYSGEN asks all
; the peripheral configuration questions using the Autoconfigure
; results as defaults for the questions. This allows you to examine
; and change the Autoconfigure results.
;
; If you do not choose to override the Autoconfigure results, SYSGEN
; uses the Autoconfigure results as the responses to the appropriate
; questions, and does not ask you those questions.
;
* SU110 Do you want to override the Autoconfigure results? [Y/N D:N]: n
Cheers,
-Olaf.
--
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert -- The Doctor: No, 'eureka' is Greek for
\X/ rhialto/at/xs4all.nl -- 'this bath is too hot.'
Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
2015-03-03 16:00:15 UTC
Permalink
I'm in a bit of a hurry, so I can't really give a proper response.
Post by Rhialto
These are the corrupted tape files. BRU doesn't seem to like either of
them.
BB-J0830-01.M01_RSX11M+_V4.6_1999.tap
BB-J0830-01.L01_RSX11M+_V4.6_BRU_1999.tap
from
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/rsx11mplus/
Those tape images work perfectly well. I have built several RSX-11/M+
systems from them; including a multiprocessor 11/74 setup on E-11.
("Only" three processors working instead of all four, because of a bug
in E-11; so any chance we can get some 11/74 goodness in SIMH,
please?)


I've attached an installation log from those above mentioned tapes
done on SIMH just a short while ago. As can be seen they are Y2K
aware, and they produce a functional and usable RSX-11/M+ system. Of
course it needs more software to make it do anything "neat", other
than RMD (and MACRO-11). BRU on the bootable standalone RSX-11/M tape
(BB-J0830-01.M01) can read the savesets on BB-J0830-01.L01 just fine.
Though you do have to make sure the /MAX: and /HEADERS: fields have
the correct values, otherwise the resultant disk image won't work.


However, the RSX-11 layered product tapes found on the Trailing Edge
FTP site are mostly corrupted, unfortunately. Conversely, the RSTS/E
layered product tapes seem to be fine for the majority (though some
are in TPC format), as is the RSTS/E 10.1-L installation tape.



The SYSGEN process I followed is from AA-H431H-TC; while it is for
RSX-11/M+ 4.3, the process is precisely similar, and in fact after
starting the SYSGEN (with "@SYSGEN") it pretty much explains itself.
The manual itself can be found on BitSavers, right here:
<http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/rsx11/RSX11Mplus_V4.x/2a/AA-H431H-TC_RSX-11M-PLUS_4.3_System_Generation_and_Installation_Guide_Jan90.pdf>

The manual also tells exactly the values to use for the /MAX: and
/HEADERS: switches to the standalone BRU when loading the system from
the tapes; Table 2-1 in the text, text page 2-11, PDF page 41.


Cheers,
Christian
--
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.
Rhialto
2015-03-03 17:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
I've attached an installation log from those above mentioned tapes
done on SIMH just a short while ago. As can be seen they are Y2K
Ah, with a quick looks I see 2 differences: you use a different tape
device (I used ms1: -- I had the 2 tapes mounted at the same time), and
you specify csr and vector numbers. I'll try later which of the two
makes the difference.

Part of my config:

attach tm0 BB-J0830-01.M01_RSX11M+_V4.6_1999.tap
attach tm1 BB-J0830-01.L01_RSX11M+_V4.6_BRU_1999.tap

and I found some logs of what happened for me before
(with a bit of cut and paste to insert a recent output of /dev).

$ ./pdp11 rsx.ini

PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: af713b78
Disabling XQ
sim> boot tm


RSX-11M/RSX-11M-PLUS Standalone Copy System V04


RSX-11M/RSX-11M-PLUS Standalone Configuration and Disk Sizing Program

Valid switches are:
/CSR=nnnnnn to change the default device CSR
/VEC=nnn to change the default device vector
/FOR=n to change the default magtape formatter number
/DEV to list all default device CSR and vectors


Enter first device: /dev

Device CSR Vector CSR Status
------ ------ ------ ----------
DB 176700 254 Not Present
DK 177404 220 Not Present
DL 174400 160 Not Present
DM 177440 210 Not Present
DP 176714 300 Not Present
DR 176300 150 Not Present
DU 172150 154 Present
MM FOR=0 172440 330 Not Present
MS 172522 224 Present
MT 160000 320 Not Present
MU 174500 260 Not Present

Enter first device: ms1:

Enter second device: du0:

Hit RETURN and enter date and time as 'TIM HH:MM MM/DD/YY'
Post by Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
run bru
BRU>ms1: du0:
BRU -- *WARNING* -- Tape label error
I/O error code -3

BRU -- *WARNING* -- Volume not a backup tape

BRU -- *WARNING* -- Rewind error
I/O error code -3

BRU - Mount Tape 1 on MS1:

-Olaf.
--
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert -- The Doctor: No, 'eureka' is Greek for
\X/ rhialto/at/xs4all.nl -- 'this bath is too hot.'
Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
2015-03-03 18:05:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhialto
Ah, with a quick looks I see 2 differences: you use a different tape
device (I used ms1: -- I had the 2 tapes mounted at the same time), and
you specify csr and vector numbers. I'll try later which of the two
makes the difference.
Yeah, that is a problem that is with the standalone RSX-11/M boot
tape. It only allows you to define one input device and one output
device. So you have to swap tapes no matter what the case may be.

It works with the TM, TS, TU, and TQ tape drives. I also specificed
the CSR and vector because I have the three MASSBUS setup (running an
11/70 with two RM03, two TE16, and two RS04), and the CSR and vector
of the RM03/"DR"-type drives is incorrect.
Post by Rhialto
attach tm0 BB-J0830-01.M01_RSX11M+_V4.6_1999.tap
attach tm1 BB-J0830-01.L01_RSX11M+_V4.6_BRU_1999.tap
My simulator config is big, and somewhat redundant, I actually have
the installation phase and its tape swap automated with:
SET TU0 LOCK
ATTACH TU0 TAP\BB-J0830-01.M01_RSX11M+_V4.6_1999.tap
BOOT TU0
ATTACH TU0 TAP\BB-J0830-01.L01_RSX11M+_V4.6_BRU_1999.tap
CONTINUE
I have the tapes in a subfolder called "TAP". And I swap the tapes
between drives after the standalone boot tape has booted by just
hitting Ctrl+E just once.
Post by Rhialto
and I found some logs of what happened for me before
(with a bit of cut and paste to insert a recent output of /dev).
$ ./pdp11 rsx.ini
PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: af713b78
Disabling XQ
sim> boot tm
RSX-11M/RSX-11M-PLUS Standalone Copy System V04
RSX-11M/RSX-11M-PLUS Standalone Configuration and Disk Sizing Program
/CSR=nnnnnn to change the default device CSR
/VEC=nnn to change the default device vector
/FOR=n to change the default magtape formatter number
/DEV to list all default device CSR and vectors
Enter first device: /dev
Device CSR Vector CSR Status
------ ------ ------ ----------
DB 176700 254 Not Present
DK 177404 220 Not Present
DL 174400 160 Not Present
DM 177440 210 Not Present
DP 176714 300 Not Present
DR 176300 150 Not Present
DU 172150 154 Present
MM FOR=0 172440 330 Not Present
MS 172522 224 Present
MT 160000 320 Not Present
MU 174500 260 Not Present
Hit RETURN and enter date and time as 'TIM HH:MM MM/DD/YY'
Post by Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
run bru
BRU -- *WARNING* -- Tape label error
I/O error code -3
BRU -- *WARNING* -- Volume not a backup tape
BRU -- *WARNING* -- Rewind error
I/O error code -3
Yeah, you need to include the /MAXIMUM: and /HEADERS: fields in the
BRU command. And I'm 99% sure that if you try to tell the standalone
system to access as an input device, the device it wasn't booted from,
it'll do that. Not that I've tested it.


I've attached a log file using the MS: and DU: type devices. On an
11/93 system just to also prove that QBUS works fine. It also doesn't
use the /CSR or /VEC switches when defining the devices at the start,
as I don't have CSR and vector "issues."


For those who don't want to page through the PDF of the SYSGEN manual,
the values needed for the /MAX and /HEAD switches are:
+----+-----+-----+
| DEV| MAX |HEAD |
+----+-----+-----+
|RA60|24617|12308|
|RA70|34180|25593|
|RA80|14629| 7314|
|RA81|54815|51699|
|RA82|65500|51966|
|RA90|65500|65495|
|RC25| 3130| 1565|
|RD31| 2558|10236|
|RD32| 5117|20471|
|RD52| 3719| 1859|
|RD53| 8529| 4264|
|RD54|19143| 9571|
|RK07| 3308| 1654|
|RM03| 8099| 4049|
|RM05|30781|25593|
|RM80|14923| 7461|
|RP04|10567| 5283|
|RP06|20956|10478|
+----+-----+-----+
(You'll want to copy and paste that into something monospaced.)


Cheers,
Christian
--
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.
l***@openmailbox.org
2015-03-03 18:23:00 UTC
Permalink
Thank you so much for posting this. I haven't tried anything but OpenVMS
VAX under SIMH yet but looking around for what else I could run on it I
found bits and pieces of info scattered all over the net. The most
frustrating thing was finding pages where people wrote "to be continued" at
the end of a long series of partial sysgens. Talk about a cliffhanger...

It would be great if the SIMH site could consolidate all the successful
sysgens etc. people are doing on various machines so those of us who have
no idea how to get started could do so.


On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 13:05:50 -0500
Christian Gauger-Cosgrove <***@gmail.com> wrote:

[rsx-11m+ sysgen discussion deleted for the sake of brevity]
Henry Bent
2015-03-03 18:28:27 UTC
Permalink
The gunkies.org wiki has done a pretty fair job of consolidating
installation procedures for various flavors of Unix. I believe the person
behind the site is on this list, perhaps he would be willing to say whether
or not he would be willing to host non-Unix SIMH instructions.

-Henry
Post by l***@openmailbox.org
Thank you so much for posting this. I haven't tried anything but OpenVMS
VAX under SIMH yet but looking around for what else I could run on it I
found bits and pieces of info scattered all over the net. The most
frustrating thing was finding pages where people wrote "to be continued" at
the end of a long series of partial sysgens. Talk about a cliffhanger...
It would be great if the SIMH site could consolidate all the successful
sysgens etc. people are doing on various machines so those of us who have
no idea how to get started could do so.
On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 13:05:50 -0500
[rsx-11m+ sysgen discussion deleted for the sake of brevity]
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
l***@openmailbox.org
2015-03-03 18:38:39 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 13:28:27 -0500
Post by Henry Bent
The gunkies.org wiki has done a pretty fair job of consolidating
installation procedures for various flavors of Unix. I believe the person
behind the site is on this list, perhaps he would be willing to say
whether or not he would be willing to host non-Unix SIMH instructions.
Thank you. That's a good site. I don't know if it would be good for the
purpose I mentioned but it's a good resource anyway.
Bill Cunningham
2015-03-03 19:45:13 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: <***@openmailbox.org>
To: <***@trailing-edge.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Simh] Getting rsxs to run on the pdp11 emulator
Post by l***@openmailbox.org
On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 13:28:27 -0500
Post by Henry Bent
The gunkies.org wiki has done a pretty fair job of consolidating
installation procedures for various flavors of Unix. I believe the person
behind the site is on this list, perhaps he would be willing to say
whether or not he would be willing to host non-Unix SIMH instructions.
Thank you. That's a good site. I don't know if it would be good for the
purpose I mentioned but it's a good resource anyway.
Thats what I am looking for. Simh instructions. I think from some kind
of OS guide for RSXs one might be able to generate the system. Am I corerct
did Dave Cutler with MS have anything to do with RSX ?

Bill
Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
2015-03-03 20:12:07 UTC
Permalink
Thats what I am looking for. Simh instructions. I think from some kind of
OS guide for RSXs one might be able to generate the system. Am I corerct did
Dave Cutler with MS have anything to do with RSX ?
Correct. Dave Cutler is the "father" of RSX-11/M+, VMS, and Windows
NT. (Yes, you may insert "WNT is VMS++" jokes here.)

Interestingly I heard an anecdote that Cutler contributed so much to
RSX-11/M+ that someone thought "Dave Cutler" was a made up name used
by groups of programmers because "surely no one can write that much."
I think I'm misremembering it.


Speaking of SIMH instructions, I've been meaning to, for a while,
document the setup of and installation of layered products in, RSTS/E
10.1, but I keep getting sidetracked.


Cheers,
Christian
--
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.
Sergey Oboguev
2015-03-04 01:28:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Cunningham
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Simh] Getting rsxs to run on the pdp11 emulator
Dave Cutler is the "father" of RSX-11/M+, VMS, and Windows NT.
Since the topic of "Cutler the Demiurg of VMS" comes up once in a while here
and there...

In the interests of some historical justice and accuracy, Cutler is "a" father
of VMS, not "the" father.

The myth that Cutler was "the" father of VMS originated in its public
circulations probably from the authors of the "Showstopper" book, who did not
have much interest in the subject of VMS, did not have access to the members of
early VMS design team and could not know what had been happening there, and
also probably (as many if not most book authors) were not against dramatizing
and embellishing their story a little.

I have not read or heard anywhere that Cutler himself was ever claiming the
role in VMS development ascribed to him by this myth.

In reality, from the very start there were three key people on the software
side in development of VAX and subsequently VMS, and if any "the" father of VMS
were to be named at all, it would hands down be Dick Hustvedt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Hustvedt

Cutler was a technical team manager during the development of initial versions
of VMS, however he was not the top #1 architect and technical contributor.

"VAX Team A" designing VAX architecture included 3 people from the hardware
side and 3 people from the software side. On the software side these were
Dick Hustvedt, Peter Lipman and David Cutler. These three also became later
the principal authors of VMS kernel.

In terms of the magnitude of contribution to VMS among these three
a distinct #1 was certainly Hustvedt.

A look into VMS source code (authorship and change history in source files
headers) in source kits at around VMS late 3.x-4.0 versions timeframe -- about
the time when all three departed VMS development -- makes the picture
exceedingly clear.

Direct code contributions of Cutler to VMS were parts of the kernel, DCL, MCR,
autoconfig, 5 drivers and C run-time library.

As to the specific parts of VMS kernel, the breakdown of its primary authors
is as follows:

Cutler was responsible for IO subsystem (except page locking), forking (like in
fork processes/fork blocks), exception handling, system timer and timer
services, executive pool allocation, bugcheck code, logical names and several
miscellaneous facilities (including mailboxes, console IO routines, CHMx
dispatcher, adjust stack and error logging interface routines in the kernel).
There are no visible Cutler "fingerprints" (change/authorship comments) in any
other kernel modules.

Hustvedt was the primary author responsible for the scheduler, swapper,
synchronization primitives (including event flags and kernel mutexes) and RSE
code (that changes process scheduling state in response to system events), AST
handling (for all CPU modes), process creation/deletion/starting, process
control (suspend/resume/hibernate/wakeup/handling process priorities and
names), process shell and null process, system init, SYSGEN parameters,
image exit and rundown, power failure handling and recovery, VMB, SYSBOOT,
XDELTA and MSCP port driver.

In addition, as a secondary author Hustvedt was responsible for 55 other source
files in the kernel.

Later Hustvedt was also responsible for ASMP (asymmetric multi-processing) and
was the driving force behind the advent of VAXcluster.

Peter Lipman was the primary author responsible for all virtual and physical
memory handling (except swapper). This may sound brief, but these are the most
complex and sophisticated modules in the system with extreme importance.
One should remember that the ability of VMS to run scores of user sessions
in a few megabytes of main memory was a sort of a technical wonder that,
one might surmise, greatly contributed to VMS success. In the course of
VAX MP project, I had a reason to look through some pieces of these algorithms
and implementation code behind them and might say they stay a technical miracle
even today, with hardly any modern operating system replicating their
complexity and sophistication (of course, in days of RAM plenty this is not
much of a pressing issue). In addition, Lipman was responsible as the primary
author for image activator, kernel file IO routines and GETDVI. As a secondary
contributor he was also responsible for 63 other source files in the kernel.

There were also other major VMS components, such as file system, various system
processes, later SCA/SCS etc., developed by other people.

Thus, though contributions of Cutler to VMS were significant, he by no means
was "the demiurge" of VMS as the myth would have it, nor even the architect #1.

One may surmise that dedication of I&DS to Hustvedt (rather than Cutler, who by
the time the book was published also departed VMS development) was not only a
"thank you" by grateful colleagues after the tragedy that happened to Hustvedt
and also owing to the "social" role Hustvedt played inside the team (in his
social skills Hustvedt is generally remembered to be the opposite of Cutler, as
a very friendly person always willing to help, to explain and to teach), but
also a reflection of his technical and architectural contribution to VAX/VMS.

Hustvedt, who was the key focal point in the VMS team, tragically suffered car
accident in 1984 that left him brain-damaged.

http://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2008/04/23/dick-hustvedt-the-consummate-software-engineer
http://seedwatcher.typepad.com/seedwatcher/2008/04/in-memory-of-my.html

Here he is pictured (on the left) next to Andy Goldstein, another key VMS
developer.

Loading Image...

Besides Hustvedt's key contribution to the initial development of VMS, he was
also the driving force behind the development of VAXcluster, at a time when
Cutler already departed VMS engineering.

Lipman departed DEC in 1984 to become a key person in the development of
fault-tolerant systems in Tandem, Amdahl and subsequently HP.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/peterlipman

This is not to diminish Cutler's real contribution to VMS -- it was quite
significant, significant enough not to need mythical embellishment by
positioning him as "the" father of VMS.
l***@openmailbox.org
2015-03-04 12:45:09 UTC
Permalink
Incredible post! This list is worth following for the scope of information
alone, even if you never run SIMH...


On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 17:28:25 -0800
Post by Sergey Oboguev
Since the topic of "Cutler the Demiurg of VMS" comes up once in a while
here and there...
[fantastic post deleted for brevity]
Bill Cunningham
2015-03-04 19:18:07 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: <***@openmailbox.org>
To: "SIMH" <***@trailing-edge.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Simh] Regarding "Cutler THE father of VMS" myth
Post by l***@openmailbox.org
Incredible post! This list is worth following for the scope of information
alone, even if you never run SIMH...
On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 17:28:25 -0800
Post by Sergey Oboguev
Since the topic of "Cutler the Demiurg of VMS" comes up once in a while
here and there...
[fantastic post deleted for brevity]
This sounds to me that Cutler and maye RSX was about the same time that
Ritchie and Thompson also got Unix together. And I guess it was 5 years
later that Kildall put CP/M together. And the 8" diskette came together.

Bill
Johnny Billquist
2015-03-04 19:20:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Cunningham
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Simh] Regarding "Cutler THE father of VMS" myth
Post by l***@openmailbox.org
Incredible post! This list is worth following for the scope of information
alone, even if you never run SIMH...
On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 17:28:25 -0800
Post by Sergey Oboguev
Since the topic of "Cutler the Demiurg of VMS" comes up once in a while
here and there...
[fantastic post deleted for brevity]
This sounds to me that Cutler and maye RSX was about the same time
that Ritchie and Thompson also got Unix together. And I guess it was 5
years later that Kildall put CP/M together. And the 8" diskette came
together.
Actually, Ritchie and Thompson did Unix before Cutler did RSX. But
Cutler didn't design RSX, he just reimplemented it. The early versions
of RSX are contemporary with Unix, yes.

Johnny
Bill Cunningham
2015-03-04 19:23:39 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Johnny Billquist" <***@softjar.se>
To: <***@trailing-edge.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Simh] Regarding "Cutler THE father of VMS" myth
Post by Bill Cunningham
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Simh] Regarding "Cutler THE father of VMS" myth
Post by l***@openmailbox.org
Incredible post! This list is worth following for the scope of information
alone, even if you never run SIMH...
On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 17:28:25 -0800
Post by Sergey Oboguev
Since the topic of "Cutler the Demiurg of VMS" comes up once in a while
here and there...
[fantastic post deleted for brevity]
This sounds to me that Cutler and maye RSX was about the same time
that Ritchie and Thompson also got Unix together. And I guess it was 5
years later that Kildall put CP/M together. And the 8" diskette came
together.
Actually, Ritchie and Thompson did Unix before Cutler did RSX. But Cutler
didn't design RSX, he just reimplemented it. The early versions of RSX are
contemporary with Unix, yes.
Johnny
Well you would know. But I've always heard Dave Cutler given full credit
for RSX. I know he designed NTFS.

Bill
Johnny Billquist
2015-03-04 19:30:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Cunningham
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Simh] Regarding "Cutler THE father of VMS" myth
Post by Johnny Billquist
Post by Bill Cunningham
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Simh] Regarding "Cutler THE father of VMS" myth
Post by l***@openmailbox.org
Incredible post! This list is worth following for the scope of information
alone, even if you never run SIMH...
On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 17:28:25 -0800
Post by Sergey Oboguev
Since the topic of "Cutler the Demiurg of VMS" comes up once in a while
here and there...
[fantastic post deleted for brevity]
This sounds to me that Cutler and maye RSX was about the same time
that Ritchie and Thompson also got Unix together. And I guess it was 5
years later that Kildall put CP/M together. And the 8" diskette came
together.
Actually, Ritchie and Thompson did Unix before Cutler did RSX. But
Cutler didn't design RSX, he just reimplemented it. The early versions
of RSX are contemporary with Unix, yes.
Johnny
Well you would know. But I've always heard Dave Cutler given full
credit for RSX. I know he designed NTFS.
Cutler have most credit for RSX-11M, but RSX-11M was just a
reimplementation of RSX-11D. Same API, but redesigned internals.
And RSX-11D comes from -11C, and eventually you can trace it all back to
RSX-15, which was written for the PDP-15...
So many of the ideas and concepts had already been done before Cutler.

One thing Cutler did, which you do not find in the predecessors are ACPs.

Johnny
Sergey Oboguev
2015-03-04 19:47:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Cunningham
I've always heard Dave Cutler given full credit
for RSX. I know he designed NTFS.
If you imply NT file system, then the history of NTFS development is described
at some length in the "Showstopper". According to this description NTFS was one
of the aspects of NT Cutler did not partake in.

NTFS had other developers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS#Developers
Bill Cunningham
2015-03-04 20:36:35 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sergey Oboguev" <***@yahoo.com>
To: "Bill Cunningham" <***@suddenlink.net>; <***@trailing-edge.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Simh] Regarding "Cutler THE father of VMS" myth
Post by Sergey Oboguev
Post by Bill Cunningham
I've always heard Dave Cutler given full credit
for RSX. I know he designed NTFS.
If you imply NT file system, then the history of NTFS development is described
at some length in the "Showstopper". According to this description NTFS was one
of the aspects of NT Cutler did not partake in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS#Developers
I apologize. It seems I have been told all kinds of wrong things.

Bill
Andreas Davour
2015-03-05 09:44:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sergey Oboguev
Post by Bill Cunningham
I've always heard Dave Cutler given full credit
for RSX. I know he designed NTFS.
If you imply NT file system, then the history of NTFS development is described
at some length in the "Showstopper". According to this description NTFS was one
of the aspects of NT Cutler did not partake in.
Very intresting stories these, all of them. Maybe my memory is rusty, or
I've not heard of it before, but what is the "Showstopper"?

-andreas
--
"economics is a pseudoscience; the astrology of our time"
Kim Stanley Robinson
Sergey Oboguev
2015-03-05 17:25:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andreas Davour
what is the "Showstopper"?
A belletristic account of Windows NT development history.

"Showstopper is the dramatic, inside story of the creation of Windows NT, told by Wall Street Journal reporter G. Pascal Zachary. Driven by the legendary Bruce [sic!] Cutler, a picked band of software engineers sacrifices almost everything in their lives to build a new, stable, operating system aimed at giving Microsoft a platform for growth through the next decade of development in the computing business. Comparable in many ways to the Pulitzer Prize-winning book The Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder, Showstopper gets deep inside the process of software development, the lives and motivations of coders and the pressure to succeed coupled with the drive for originality and perfection that can pull a diverse team together to create a program consisting of many hundreds of thousands of lines of code."

http://www.amazon.com/Showstopper-Breakneck-Windows-Generation-Microsoft/dp/1497638836

In all fairness, in the text of the book they actually got Cutler's name right.

"G. Pascal Zachary is a journalist, author, and teacher. He spent thirteen years as a senior writer for the Wall Street Journal (1989 to 2001) [...] Zachary concentrates on African affairs. He also writes on globalization, America's role in world affairs, immigration, race and identity, and the dysfunctionalities and divisions in US society."

Some undoubtedly would argue that Windows must be falling into "dysfunctionalities and divisions in US society".
Andreas Davour
2015-03-05 21:20:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sergey Oboguev
Post by Andreas Davour
what is the "Showstopper"?
A belletristic account of Windows NT development history.
"Showstopper is the dramatic, inside story of the creation of Windows
NT, told by Wall Street Journal reporter G. Pascal Zachary. Driven by
the legendary Bruce [sic!] Cutler, a picked band of software engineers
sacrifices almost everything in their lives to build a new, stable,
operating system aimed at giving Microsoft a platform for growth
through the next decade of development in the computing business.
Comparable in many ways to the Pulitzer Prize-winning book The Soul of
a New Machine by Tracy Kidder, Showstopper gets deep inside the
process of software development, the lives and motivations of coders
and the pressure to succeed coupled with the drive for originality and
perfection that can pull a diverse team together to create a program
consisting of many hundreds of thousands of lines of code."
http://www.amazon.com/Showstopper-Breakneck-Windows-Generation-Microsoft/dp/1497638836
In all fairness, in the text of the book they actually got Cutler's name right.
"G. Pascal Zachary is a journalist, author, and teacher. He spent
thirteen years as a senior writer for the Wall Street Journal (1989 to
2001) [...] Zachary concentrates on African affairs. He also writes on
globalization, America's role in world affairs, immigration, race and
identity, and the dysfunctionalities and divisions in US society."
Some undoubtedly would argue that Windows must be falling into
"dysfunctionalities and divisions in US society".
Thanks Sergey!

The quotes made me think it was the name it was known as, not the read
name of the book.

Sounds a bit hyped...

-andreas

--
"economics is a pseudoscience; the astrology of our time"
Kim Stanley Robinson
Sergey Oboguev
2015-03-08 12:23:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johnny Billquist
One thing Cutler did, which you do not find in the predecessors are ACPs.
If so, he may have a claim to inventing (a hint at) a microkernel concept. ;-)

Ironically, while ACPs made a lot of sense in a PDP-11 world due to the constraints in address space and kernel memory size, but rolling ACP idea over to VMS was much less productive (since these constraints were gone), and eventually F11 ACP was replaced with in-process XQP.

I am wondering though if FUSE developers ever heard of ACPs or reinvented the concept from scratch.
At least http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_in_Userspace
claims that "The idea of a filesystem driver living in userspace was originally developed in 1995".

It is also curious that ACPs (whether in traditional form or XQP form) allowed to do one thing that Unix/Linux interface still does not -- opening files as an asynchronous operation -- but ironically the chief utility of this capability is mainly for web servers which were not invented back then yet.

P.S. To come think of it, my very first project as a salaried software developer (more akin to commercial enterprise of Tom Sawyer in fence painting business) at ca. 1984 involved writing an ACP-like structure... not for a file system, but for a graphics card, on RSX.
Clem Cole
2015-03-08 20:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sergey Oboguev
If so, he may have a claim to inventing (a hint at) a microkernel concept. ;-)
​Dykstra invented the ukernel -- its the THE kernel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THE_multiprogramming_system

The paper itself is
http://uosis.mif.vu.lt/~liutauras/books/Dijkstra%20-%20The%20structure%20of%20the%20THE%20multiprogramming%20system.pdf

And all kernel hacker should read it some time. It where the idea of
semaphores are defined and the idea of "up" and "down" - (aka P/V).

Clem​
Johnny Billquist
2015-03-08 20:48:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sergey Oboguev
If so, he may have a claim to inventing (a hint at) a microkernel concept. ;-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THE_multiprogramming_system
The paper itself is
http://uosis.mif.vu.lt/~liutauras/books/Dijkstra%20-%20The%20structure%20of%20the%20THE%20multiprogramming%20system.pdf
And all kernel hacker should read it some time. It where the idea of
semaphores are defined and the idea of "up" and "down" - (aka P/V).
Well, in all fairness, semaphores were used on railways already in the
19th century...

Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: ***@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Clem Cole
2015-03-08 21:25:24 UTC
Permalink
Yep
Post by Johnny Billquist
Post by Sergey Oboguev
If so, he may have a claim to inventing (a hint at) a microkernel concept. ;-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THE_multiprogramming_system
The paper itself is
http://uosis.mif.vu.lt/~liutauras/books/Dijkstra%20-%
20The%20structure%20of%20the%20THE%20multiprogramming%20system.pdf
And all kernel hacker should read it some time. It where the idea of
semaphores are defined and the idea of "up" and "down" - (aka P/V).
Well, in all fairness, semaphores were used on railways already in the
19th century...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Henk Gooijen
2015-03-22 20:28:36 UTC
Permalink
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
From: Johnny Billquist
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2015 9:48 PM
To: ***@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] Regarding "Cutler THE father of VMS" myth
Post by Sergey Oboguev
If so, he may have a claim to inventing (a hint at) a microkernel concept. ;-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THE_multiprogramming_system
The paper itself is
http://uosis.mif.vu.lt/~liutauras/books/Dijkstra%20-%20The%20structure%20of%20the%20THE%20multiprogramming%20system.pdf
And all kernel hacker should read it some time. It where the idea of
semaphores are defined and the idea of "up" and "down" - (aka P/V).
Well, in all fairness, semaphores were used on railways already in the
19th century...

Johnny


That's true, but Dijkstra used it as a software technique, and that was new.
BTW, "up" and "down" is not the best translation for "P/V" operation.
P stands for the Dutch word "passeer" which roughly translates to "pass".
V stands for the Dutch word "verhoog" and that should be translated to
"increment". And that is exactly what happens: pass and increment (the
semaphore variable).

- Henk
Sergey Oboguev
2015-03-22 21:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henk Gooijen
"up" and "down" is not the best translation for "P/V" operation.
P stands for the Dutch word "passeer" which roughly translates to "pass".
V stands for the Dutch word "verhoog" and that should be translated to "increment".
The history of early efforts in synchronization is fascinating.

Another fascinating piece along the same lines is a comment at Lamport's web page to one of his articles relating that when Alpha was being designed, the designers came to Lamport and asked if he can optimize his synchronization algorithm so that Alpha can get by with having no interlocked instructions (low contention was considered to be the primary use case)... and Lamport did, but even the optimized version of the algorithm was still deemed expensive, so Alpha team designed LL/SC into the processor.
Rhialto
2015-03-22 22:20:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henk Gooijen
That's true, but Dijkstra used it as a software technique, and that was new.
BTW, "up" and "down" is not the best translation for "P/V" operation.
P stands for the Dutch word "passeer" which roughly translates to "pass".
V stands for the Dutch word "verhoog" and that should be translated to
"increment". And that is exactly what happens: pass and increment (the
semaphore variable).
Actually, they taught me that P stands for "Passeren" (to pass) and V
stands for "Vrijgeven", i.e. "to release".

-Olaf.
--
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert -- The Doctor: No, 'eureka' is Greek for
\X/ rhialto/at/xs4all.nl -- 'this bath is too hot.'
Ton van Overbeek
2015-03-09 07:04:55 UTC
Permalink
Clem,

Thanks for the reference to the Dijkstra paper.
I had my electrical engineering education at the THE 1968-1974 and our
introduction to programming class
was taught by Dijkstra himself. Of course our exercises had to be programmed
in Algol68 and run on the EL-X8
system described in the paper (entering programs on paper tape with a
flexowriter).
Interesting to read how ‘small’ the machine was in terms of memory and mass
storage.
The actual machine consisted of several cabinets.

Apologies for the off-topic post.

Ton van Overbeek

From: Clem Cole <***@ccc.com>
Date: Sunday 8 March 2015 21:39
To: Sergey Oboguev <***@yahoo.com>
Cc: "***@trailing-edge.com" <***@trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: [Simh] Regarding "Cutler THE father of VMS" myth
Post by Sergey Oboguev
If so, he may have a claim to inventing (a hint at) a microkernel concept. ;-)
​Dykstra invented the ukernel -- its the THE kernel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THE_multiprogramming_system

The paper itself is
http://uosis.mif.vu.lt/~liutauras/books/Dijkstra%20-%20The%20structure%20of%
20the%20THE%20multiprogramming%20system.pdf

And all kernel hacker should read it some time. It where the idea of
semaphores are defined and the idea of "up" and "down" - (aka P/V).

Clem​

_______________________________________________ Simh mailing list
***@trailing-edge.com
http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Clem Cole
2015-03-04 20:16:13 UTC
Permalink
Hmm since this has deteriorated into stories and history of Dave and what
he did. I'll add one of mine and what I know. Apologies to this group
ahead of time if you do not, but I think many of you might find it amusing
if not interesting.

I was under the impression Culter built something similar to RSX for the
PDP-10 pre-DEC (for DuPont). At least that is what guys like Fossil, Clark
D'Elia who had worked with Dave on RSX, Paul Cantrell who had worked on
VMS's file systems and Tom Kent on the terminal system had always said to
me. I'm pretty sure it was the DEC sales guys that introduced him to the
engineering teams and eventually he went to work for Roger in the "VAX SW"
team. I've never been completely sure of the path, I think Dave came
late to RSX proper, although I thought he had a heavy hand in the "11M"
implementation.

I can say, in the early 1980s, I first met him at a bar in Littleton Ma
(the old "Maui ??something??" - which is now the site of the YankeeZee
River Restaurant) in Littleton, MA. Clark knew I had programmed on VAX
Serial #1 under VMS and done the TCP/IP work so was pretty familiar with
the systems and even Dave's C compiler, but prefered UNIX and "Ritchie C."
Dave and I knew of each other and had actually exchanged emails
previously but have never met in person before that night. Clark wanted
us to meet, so he arrange for some of the VMS guys to getgether and dragged
me along when Cutler who was at the time at DEC west working on what would
later become Mica and had come east at that point for some mtg in Maynard
WRT uVax IIRC. Dave Cane (Mr. VAX 750), heard the meeting was going to
happen and walked into Roger's office, who was later reported by I think it
was Janet Egan as having to have replied: "Oh sh*t one of them is going to
tear a new a*shole into the other."


Anyway, we all ended up at the bar and Clark tried to trying to start a
food fight by turning to Dave and introduced me with the words: "Dave meet
Clem. He's one of the old UNIX guys and he thinks all the SW DEC built in
the last few years sucks." But Fossil then turned to Dave and said "When I
hired you I had a fiery red beard [he turned grey in the mid-70s], and then
turned to me and said and after you I went bald." Truth is we got along
fine that night and would each buy the other a beer or two. In fact, Dave
and I would work together a few years later on NT-OS/2 uKernel when he was
at MSFT and I was at NCR.

But that evening, I would not grant him two design issues with VMS - using
assembler instead of BLISS [DC hates BLISS] and the file naming conventions
[which he defended as being required to be compatible with RSX and I
replied but he wasn't]; and he would not give into the fact the UNIX had a
command system that was in his words "random" and "unclean" in the handling
of things like errors [I understand but accept it as a cost of that's what
happens when you have a lot of different developers as opposed to small
controlled team and in return you get a lot of useful work from a lot of
people].

The truth is we both respected the work the other had done and understand
why both systems were successful and useful and I think Clark was
disappointed it did not become a shouting match.

As for NT, Dave definitely lead Mica, which begat NT-OS/2 @ MSFT. Windows
was spliced into what would become NT-Windows by the time it became a
product. But Dave's team was responsible for uKernel portion and he will
tell you he was influenced by CMU's Mach and what had made UNIX
successful. When it was still Mica, the idea was to have two user mode
API's, one being VMS and one being UNIX with the new ukernel being coming
between them.

Clem
Post by Bill Cunningham
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Simh] Regarding "Cutler THE father of VMS" myth
Incredible post! This list is worth following for the scope of
Post by Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
information
alone, even if you never run SIMH...
On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 17:28:25 -0800
Since the topic of "Cutler the Demiurg of VMS" comes up once in a while
Post by Sergey Oboguev
here and there...
[fantastic post deleted for brevity]
This sounds to me that Cutler and maye RSX was about the same time
that Ritchie and Thompson also got Unix together. And I guess it was 5
years later that Kildall put CP/M together. And the 8" diskette came
together.
Actually, Ritchie and Thompson did Unix before Cutler did RSX. But Cutler
didn't design RSX, he just reimplemented it. The early versions of RSX are
contemporary with Unix, yes.
Johnny
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Bill Cunningham
2015-03-04 20:38:10 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clem Cole" <***@ccc.com>
To: "Johnny Billquist" <***@softjar.se>
Cc: "SIMH" <***@trailing-edge.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Simh] Regarding "Cutler THE father of VMS" myth
Post by Clem Cole
Hmm since this has deteriorated into stories and history of Dave and what
he did. I'll add one of mine and what I know. Apologies to this group
ahead of time if you do not, but I think many of you might find it amusing
if not interesting.
I was under the impression Culter built something similar to RSX for the
PDP-10 pre-DEC (for DuPont). At least that is what guys like Fossil, Clark
D'Elia who had worked with Dave on RSX, Paul Cantrell who had worked on
VMS's file systems and Tom Kent on the terminal system had always said to
me. I'm pretty sure it was the DEC sales guys that introduced him to the
engineering teams and eventually he went to work for Roger in the "VAX SW"
team. I've never been completely sure of the path, I think Dave came
late to RSX proper, although I thought he had a heavy hand in the "11M"
implementation.
I can say, in the early 1980s, I first met him at a bar in Littleton Ma
(the old "Maui ??something??" - which is now the site of the YankeeZee
River Restaurant) in Littleton, MA. Clark knew I had programmed on VAX
Serial #1 under VMS and done the TCP/IP work so was pretty familiar with
the systems and even Dave's C compiler, but prefered UNIX and "Ritchie C."
Dave and I knew of each other and had actually exchanged emails
previously but have never met in person before that night. Clark wanted
us to meet, so he arrange for some of the VMS guys to getgether and dragged
me along when Cutler who was at the time at DEC west working on what would
later become Mica and had come east at that point for some mtg in Maynard
WRT uVax IIRC. Dave Cane (Mr. VAX 750), heard the meeting was going to
happen and walked into Roger's office, who was later reported by I think it
was Janet Egan as having to have replied: "Oh sh*t one of them is going to
tear a new a*shole into the other."
Anyway, we all ended up at the bar and Clark tried to trying to start a
food fight by turning to Dave and introduced me with the words: "Dave meet
Clem. He's one of the old UNIX guys and he thinks all the SW DEC built in
the last few years sucks." But Fossil then turned to Dave and said "When I
hired you I had a fiery red beard [he turned grey in the mid-70s], and then
turned to me and said and after you I went bald." Truth is we got along
fine that night and would each buy the other a beer or two. In fact, Dave
and I would work together a few years later on NT-OS/2 uKernel when he was
at MSFT and I was at NCR.
But that evening, I would not grant him two design issues with VMS - using
assembler instead of BLISS [DC hates BLISS] and the file naming conventions
[which he defended as being required to be compatible with RSX and I
replied but he wasn't]; and he would not give into the fact the UNIX had a
command system that was in his words "random" and "unclean" in the handling
of things like errors [I understand but accept it as a cost of that's what
happens when you have a lot of different developers as opposed to small
controlled team and in return you get a lot of useful work from a lot of
people].
The truth is we both respected the work the other had done and understand
why both systems were successful and useful and I think Clark was
disappointed it did not become a shouting match.
Windows
was spliced into what would become NT-Windows by the time it became a
product. But Dave's team was responsible for uKernel portion and he will
tell you he was influenced by CMU's Mach and what had made UNIX
successful. When it was still Mica, the idea was to have two user mode
API's, one being VMS and one being UNIX with the new ukernel being coming
between them.
Clem
That is indeed a wonderful story. So Cutler didn't "hate" Unix like I
have alawys heard then?

Bill
Clem Cole
2015-03-04 21:22:05 UTC
Permalink
That is indeed a wonderful story. So Cutler didn't "hate" Unix like I have
alawys heard then?
​Well, I think its like saying I hate(d) VMS or RSX. I respect(ed) both
systems, but would prefer not use them when I had other systems that made
me more productive. My employer today (Intel) is heavily Windows
oriented. Windows drives me nuts. I'm typing this on a Mac and would
probably used Linux if I did not have the Mac. But I will use Windows
when I have too and understand why it's there. Most of the time I can
avoid it. But bless MSFT and Windows, it sells lots of Intel chips which
helps to keep me employed. Same thing about Fortran. I'm at HPC type,
and in reality Fortran pays my salary; but I don't want to have to program
using it.

IMO: While I think it bug Dave and others that people did not like his
favorite system, I think Dave understood then that UNIX was it was and VMS
was not going to replace it and the arguments were not useful (although
that did not stop them mind you when pride was on the line). What
mattered was many large customers wanted UNIX and prefered it. I suspect
Dave would rather use VMS, but if UNIX was selling Vaxen, and people were
not going elsewhere, Unix/Ultrix was important.

That said looking at all of UNIX, VMS source and later NT-OS/2 source, I
might suggest that Mica looked in many ways more "UNIX" than VMS as a
ukernel. Again, IMO why is because it's model was Mach, ney Accent, ney
Rig and structurally Dave had learned the ideas that the ukernel offered
were very good and useful. Unix has been able to embrace the ideas easily
and I do not think that would have been easy with VMS.

From what I have understood, at the time, just as the "Gem" group in the
compiler team was doing a full rewrite, Dave too wanted a modern kernel for
DEC's future. He needed a modern, scalable and portable VMS
implementation too and (I believe) he wanted to see DEC get back to single
core OS instead of needing multiple OS teams (that vision would never be
found). So learn from what UNIX and family did well, at MSFT this is
called "embrace and extend."


They wrote Mica in C++ (warped a bit to look like PL/1 IMO), but at least
it was not assembler anymore. It was made to scale and work on UP, SMP, or
NORMA hardware as well as Vax, MIPS and PRISM. UNIX really was that
influence, at the time VMS certainly could not do that and was not going
too. Remember when "VAX SW" is being put together in the early/mid-70s,
many commercial OS guys (particularly @ DEC) did not (yet) believe it was
possible to right a commercial OS in anything but assembler - until UNIX
(although UNIX was hardly the first - Boroughs used an Algol, and of course
GE/Honeywell and Pr1me used PL/1 and to be fair UNIX v1 was written in
PDP-7 assembler).

Clem
Sergey Oboguev
2015-03-04 23:22:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clem Cole
While I think it bug Dave and others that people did not like his
favorite system ...
"The New Hacker's Dictionary", MIT Press, 3rd edition:

"Many Unix fans generously concede that VMS would probably be the
hacker's favorite commercial OS if Unix didn't exist; though true,
this makes VMS fans furious." ;-)
Post by Clem Cole
Unix has been able to embrace the ideas easily and I do not think
that would have been easy with VMS
It would not, which makes it even more curious that there was a pilot
effort at reimplementation of VMS on top of Mach.

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=964616
http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=692228
http://www.sture.ch/vms/Usenix_VMS-on-Mach.pdf
Post by Clem Cole
They wrote Mica in C++ (warped a bit to look like PL/1 IMO)
Was not it supposed to be in Pillar (kind of Pascal++)?
Or was Pillar abandoned or relegated to some other role?

http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/dec/prism/mica/Pillar_Language_Specification_Nov88.pdf
Clem Cole
2015-03-05 01:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sergey Oboguev
Post by Clem Cole
Unix has been able to embrace the ideas easily and I do not think
that would have been easy with VMS
It would not, which makes it even more curious that there was a pilot
effort at reimplementation of VMS on top of Mach.
​Sorry, my wording was not as crisp as it should have been. Indeed,
re-implementing VMS on top of uKernel is possible and was
proposed/attempt/done at least twice - in fact I was part of one of them
(I.e. I know of 2 projects that actually started and a 3rd that proposed
it, there may have been more). But in all three cases, they took or
planned to use a uKernel, with a more standard supervisor/user mode scheme
and then implemented the VMS APIs and services on top of it; then
reimplement a number of the VMS commands [since parts of the command system
was somewhat intertwined with the protection/memory scheme that VAX/VMS
had].

What I meant by my comment is that, CMU took BSD 4.1, ripped out the memory
system and much of I/O system, and part of the process management system,
and then inserted Mach inside of it (aka Mach 2.5). The UNIX API and
command system was left intact, and most of the basic UNIX kernel was left
alone. They added a few new commands to and added some system services
for the "mach-ness" but as far as a user was concerned it was just BSD4.1
or later BSD 4.2.

What I was saying im my previous email was that I believe that trying to
pulling VAX/VMS apart in the same way as the CMU guys did to BSD, and
inserting a uKernel of almost any flavor into it under the covers would
have been much more difficult.​ Knowing a little about how both systems
were put together, I really believe that Unix was just much easier to
modify in that way and VMS was.


Clem
Johnny Billquist
2015-03-05 16:32:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sergey Oboguev
Post by Clem Cole
While I think it bug Dave and others that people did not like his
favorite system ...
The "New Hacker's Dictionary" is a prime example of history
falsification. You should read the original. It is quite different. ESR
did a lot of text substitution and outright changing to fit his view of
the world when he "took over".
Post by Sergey Oboguev
"Many Unix fans generously concede that VMS would probably be the
hacker's favorite commercial OS if Unix didn't exist; though true,
this makes VMS fans furious." ;-)
This is just silly. TOPS-20 people are either shaking their heads at the
level of uninformedness, or spinning in their graves...

Johnny
Dennis Boone
2015-03-04 21:40:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clem Cole
Remember when "VAX SW" is being put together in the early/mid-70s,
was possible to right a commercial OS in anything but assembler -
until UNIX (although UNIX was hardly the first - Boroughs used an
Algol, and of course GE/Honeywell and Pr1me used PL/1 and to be fair
UNIX v1 was written in PDP-7 assembler).
Poduska bully-wheedled his operating system engineers into using a
compiled language in the beginning, but it was FORTRAN at first. PL/P
didn't come along until '78 or so.

De
Clem Cole
2015-03-04 21:56:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dennis Boone
Poduska bully-wheedled his operating system engineers into using a
compiled language in the beginning, but it was FORTRAN at first. PL/P
didn't come along until '78 or so
​Interesting. With Apollo they went back to Fortran (Ratfor actually).
Bill was always good at seeing the direction of future (one of the best
people I have known at doing that), but he did not always get the actual
technology that won in the end.
Sergey Oboguev
2015-03-04 22:47:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clem Cole
Remember when "VAX SW" is being put together in the early/mid-70s,
was possible to right a commercial OS in anything but assembler -
until UNIX (although UNIX was hardly the first - Boroughs used an
Algol, and of course GE/Honeywell and Pr1me used PL/1 and to be fair
UNIX v1 was written in PDP-7 assembler).
VMS team had to make design choices within the constraints of the state of
compiler technology, hardware technology/costs, and the requirements of
market competitiveness.

Looking back, it is very clear that VMS designers went to extreme lengths
to ensure a system runnable very efficiently on a resource-constrained
hardware.

Some of their choices included

- partially paged system code
- partially paged pool
- extremely sophisticated memory management algorithms

Their choices also included choosing assembler as an implementation language
for key system modules rather than high-level language. The state of the
compiler technology to match or surpass hand-written assembler code just was
not there at the time, and would not be there for about another decade
(after all, the advent of modern efficient compilers owes a historical stage
of their development to the availability VAX as a development platform).

Choice of the assembler and accordingly manual hard labor as "an optimization
engine" allowed to achieve smaller memory footprint of the system and faster
code than present state of compiler technology would allow, which was crucial.

One should just remember that 11/780 computational performance was only about
0.7 MIPS and some of the initial machines shipped with less than 1 MB of
memory.

As an illustration, the first VAX I personally met even much later (ca. 1984)
was 11/780 with only 2 MB of RAM.

Another place I worked at later ran (in ca. 1984-1988) a cluster of 780's with
initially 4 MB each later upgraded to 8 MB. During daytime, the mix on *each*
of the machines included about 4-6 concurrently executing batch jobs doing
particle physics computations plus about 20 interactive sessions of people
editing, compiling, running and debugging their computational applications --
all in a few MBs of RAM. It was a crawl, but the system was still reasonably
responsive and able to make forward progress with only limited loss to paging
etc., and the fact VMS was able to sustain workloads like these (and thus
meet the needs of technical/engineering and scientific markets) was made
possible by those extreme lengths VMS developers went to and by the
trade-offs they chose -- one of which was the choice of the assembler
as an implementation language.

This trade-off, of course, meant bleaker prospects for VMS longer-term future,
but it enabled its early market success and building of market momentum.

In a similar vein, Gordon Bell tells in one of his interviews how already in
the 1990's Cutler once asked him why they did not design VAX as a RISC from the
start. Bell answered that it would not be possible at the time: RISC
instruction set would have meant larger code size, and at those-day RAM
costs, this would impede VAX market success.
Clem Cole
2015-03-04 13:08:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sergey Oboguev
Cutler was a technical team manager during the development of initial versions
of VMS, however he was not the top #1 architect and technical contributor.
​Excellent post. Small but I think important correction. DC was not the
manager. He was one of the technical leads and incredibly important the
success. But "Fossil" aka - Roger S Gourd (rsg), was the manager of "VAX
Software". I note that most of the best engineering managers I have ever
known and worked with in the industry all worked for Roger at some time in
their career. [After the Vax shipped in the mid 1970s, Roger moved to
florida and helped to develop the Gould machine].

Roger could get the most and best out of his people. He was not a perfect
manager by any stretch and many found his methods difficult. But he made
it work and people that worked for him in the 70s and early 80s all swear
by that experience. It has been said by others that VMS and much of the
software that was what made it popular, would not have succeeded if Roger
had not managed it. DC, Hustvedt and Lipman owe a lot to his
running interference and making sure the right things happened so
they could do the technical work.

In the 90s and early 2000's they used to come to Boston in the summers, and
I would try to catch up with him and some of the others from the day, but
that has not happened for health reasons for a while. I believe that he is
still growing orchids in retirement, but his wife Sally told me a while
back his dementia has gotten to the point that he remembers little now.

Pain in the ass that fossil could be on a day to day basis, I miss his
council.

Clem
Johnny Billquist
2015-03-04 18:30:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
Thats what I am looking for. Simh instructions. I think from some kind of
OS guide for RSXs one might be able to generate the system. Am I corerct did
Dave Cutler with MS have anything to do with RSX ?
Correct. Dave Cutler is the "father" of RSX-11/M+, VMS, and Windows
NT. (Yes, you may insert "WNT is VMS++" jokes here.)
This spun off a whole thread about what role Cutler had on VMS and whatnot.
Here is a text Dave wrote on this:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/Windows-NT_is_VMS_re-implemented.html#forward

That said, I agree that VMS was definitely not written by just one
person, or designed by one person. People can make what they want of this.
Post by Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
Interestingly I heard an anecdote that Cutler contributed so much to
RSX-11/M+ that someone thought "Dave Cutler" was a made up name used
by groups of programmers because "surely no one can write that much."
I think I'm misremembering it.
No, you are not misremembering:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:RSX-11
Post by Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
Speaking of SIMH instructions, I've been meaning to, for a while,
document the setup of and installation of layered products in, RSTS/E
10.1, but I keep getting sidetracked.
Heh... Like me with all the patches I should publish on RSX...

Johnny
Johnny Billquist
2015-03-03 21:12:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Cunningham
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Simh] Getting rsxs to run on the pdp11 emulator
Post by l***@openmailbox.org
On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 13:28:27 -0500
Post by Henry Bent
The gunkies.org wiki has done a pretty fair job of consolidating
installation procedures for various flavors of Unix. I believe the person
behind the site is on this list, perhaps he would be willing to say
whether or not he would be willing to host non-Unix SIMH instructions.
Thank you. That's a good site. I don't know if it would be good for the
purpose I mentioned but it's a good resource anyway.
Thats what I am looking for. Simh instructions. I think from some
kind of OS guide for RSXs one might be able to generate the system. Am I
corerct did Dave Cutler with MS have anything to do with RSX ?
All the RSX manuals are online at bitsavers, including the manual on how
to run SYSGEN.

Yes, this is the same Dave Cutler who later was involved in VMS, and
even later Windows NT. His name is all over the RSX sources...

Johnny
Rhialto
2015-03-03 21:26:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
My simulator config is big, and somewhat redundant, I actually have
SET TU0 LOCK
ATTACH TU0 TAP\BB-J0830-01.M01_RSX11M+_V4.6_1999.tap
BOOT TU0
ATTACH TU0 TAP\BB-J0830-01.L01_RSX11M+_V4.6_BRU_1999.tap
CONTINUE
I have the tapes in a subfolder called "TAP". And I swap the tapes
between drives after the standalone boot tape has booted by just
hitting Ctrl+E just once.
Nice trick! I've used it immediately in my test setup. This time I
started with a configuration which is closer to the system I had set up
already anyway.

After quadruple checking the csr and vector addresses (and no, if SHOW
TU doesn't list them, it doesn't mean they are fixed and therefore
correct; instead I had to do SHOW RHB to find the values. This might be
a small point of improvement for simh; I could also use some help from
simh to find out that connection, which may be obvious to the
experienced, but it wasn't for me. I only discovered it by crosschecking
device names in my running RSX system)

One difference that at first I did not understand, was that I got this:

BRU - Starting Tape 1 on MM0:

BRU - This disk will not contain a hardware bootable system

BRU - End of Tape 1 on MM0:

BRU - Starting verify pass Tape 1 on MM0:

BRU - End of Tape 1 on MM0:

BRU - Completed

However, after reading the actual documentation :)
AA-H431H-TC_RSX-11M-PLUS_4.3_System_Generation_and_Installation_Guide_Jan90.pdf
I see that I need to swap the tapes between booting and running BRU.
I didn't see that happening in your log file somehow, although you do
mention it.

Anyway, by also copying from the tape I booted from, I probably copied a
bit too much. Any way to get a listing of what's on the tape?

Both files are not small:

11M BB-J0830-01.M01_RSX11M+_V4.6_1999.tap <-- booted off this one
30M BB-J0830-01.L01_RSX11M+_V4.6_BRU_1999.tap <-- contains the string
***THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A HARDWARE BOOTABLE SYSTEM ***

I've attached my console log. I've stopped at the point where I get the
MCR prompt, I haven't done the sysgen. I have removed extraneous ^Ms for
readability.

-Olaf.
--
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert -- The Doctor: No, 'eureka' is Greek for
\X/ rhialto/at/xs4all.nl -- 'this bath is too hot.'
Johnny Billquist
2015-03-03 21:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhialto
Post by Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
My simulator config is big, and somewhat redundant, I actually have
SET TU0 LOCK
ATTACH TU0 TAP\BB-J0830-01.M01_RSX11M+_V4.6_1999.tap
BOOT TU0
ATTACH TU0 TAP\BB-J0830-01.L01_RSX11M+_V4.6_BRU_1999.tap
CONTINUE
I have the tapes in a subfolder called "TAP". And I swap the tapes
between drives after the standalone boot tape has booted by just
hitting Ctrl+E just once.
Nice trick! I've used it immediately in my test setup. This time I
started with a configuration which is closer to the system I had set up
already anyway.
Swapping tapes would/should be obvious, if people think about it. If
that is what you did on a real system, you obviously need to do the same
in the emulated one...
Post by Rhialto
After quadruple checking the csr and vector addresses (and no, if SHOW
TU doesn't list them, it doesn't mean they are fixed and therefore
correct; instead I had to do SHOW RHB to find the values. This might be
a small point of improvement for simh; I could also use some help from
simh to find out that connection, which may be obvious to the
experienced, but it wasn't for me. I only discovered it by crosschecking
device names in my running RSX system)
Something very obvious if you know the actual hardware.
I sense a problem here based on you trying to run and operate a system
which you know nothing about. You will hit more problems that way. Might
be worth researching a bit about actual PDP-11 systems...

A TU tape drive is a MASSBUS tape drive. As such, it do not directly
connect to your system. The MASSBUS is a separate I/O bus. You then have
a MASSBUS controller on your Unibus.

To make it even more interesting, the tape drive is not actually sitting
on the MASSBUS either, but in reality there is something called a
formatter, which sits on the MASSBUS. For a TU77, this would normally be
a TM03. The TM03 can then, in turn, have as many as eight TU77 drives
connected.

But form the CPU, the CSR and vector related are those of the MASSBUS
controller.
Post by Rhialto
BRU - This disk will not contain a hardware bootable system
BRU - Completed
Not sure why you would get that message, unless you were restoring a
backup saveset that actually is not a bootable saveset.
Post by Rhialto
However, after reading the actual documentation :)
AA-H431H-TC_RSX-11M-PLUS_4.3_System_Generation_and_Installation_Guide_Jan90.pdf
I see that I need to swap the tapes between booting and running BRU.
I didn't see that happening in your log file somehow, although you do
mention it.
That is a different thing.
This is because back at V4.3, the BRUSYS standalone system was
distributed on one tape, and the RSX system itself was on another tape.
So you mounted the BRUSYS tape, and booted from it.
Once it had booted, you removed this tape, and instead put the RSX
distribution tape in the drive, and proceeded to restore from that tape.

The message about a hardware bootable system is unrelated to this.

Forthermore, by M+ V4.6, the two tapes were actually combined to just
one tape, so you normally do not have two tapes, or switch between tapes
during the installation.

Johnny
Rhialto
2015-03-03 22:16:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johnny Billquist
Something very obvious if you know the actual hardware.
I may be a bit spoiled by (Net)BSD, which prints a nice device tree when
it boots: you can see which devices are attached to which buses, giving
their exact names. When simh shows "TU Massbus adapter 1,
FORMATTER, TM03, 8 units" it doesn't tell me that said massbus adaptor
is called "RHB" (although that is mentioned in the help text for RHB).
It also doesn't help that DEC has these interesting tendencies to have
rather different names for the devices, controllers and their drivers
(and each of those is used, in various places). Of course, there is some
system to it, I see that, but it takes some getting used to...

(Note: I've been dabbling with VM/370 on Hercules, the IBM 3[679]0/etc
emulator, and that is waaaay worse... so everything is relative.)
Post by Johnny Billquist
I sense a problem here based on you trying to run and operate a system which
you know nothing about. You will hit more problems that way. Might be worth
researching a bit about actual PDP-11 systems...
I'm trying :)

Thanks for the exposition about the tapes. I have simply been trying a
few different configurations I found here and there until I got
something where I could (sort of) see why it worked.
Post by Johnny Billquist
Johnny
-Olaf.
--
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert -- The Doctor: No, 'eureka' is Greek for
\X/ rhialto/at/xs4all.nl -- 'this bath is too hot.'
Johnny Billquist
2015-03-03 22:21:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhialto
Post by Johnny Billquist
Something very obvious if you know the actual hardware.
I may be a bit spoiled by (Net)BSD, which prints a nice device tree when
it boots: you can see which devices are attached to which buses, giving
their exact names. When simh shows "TU Massbus adapter 1,
FORMATTER, TM03, 8 units" it doesn't tell me that said massbus adaptor
is called "RHB" (although that is mentioned in the help text for RHB).
It also doesn't help that DEC has these interesting tendencies to have
rather different names for the devices, controllers and their drivers
(and each of those is used, in various places). Of course, there is some
system to it, I see that, but it takes some getting used to...
Well, once you get RSX booted, try "CON DIS FULL ATT" for more detailed
information. :-)

simh information is about equivalent to trying to get the hardware
configuration of a PC from the BIOS user interface... :-)
Post by Rhialto
Post by Johnny Billquist
I sense a problem here based on you trying to run and operate a system which
you know nothing about. You will hit more problems that way. Might be worth
researching a bit about actual PDP-11 systems...
I'm trying :)
Excellent! :-)
Post by Rhialto
Thanks for the exposition about the tapes. I have simply been trying a
few different configurations I found here and there until I got
something where I could (sort of) see why it worked.
Happy to help with more information if you, or someone else wants to know...

Johnny
Al Kossow
2015-03-03 22:31:04 UTC
Permalink
I burst the two Mplus tape images and the smaller is a bootable baseline distribution, the larger has two BRU
savesets RSX11MPBL87 and MPBL87SRC
Al Kossow
2015-03-03 22:32:01 UTC
Permalink
the smaller bootable tape is for an rl02

RSXMPRL02
Johnny Billquist
2015-03-03 22:40:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Al Kossow
the smaller bootable tape is for an rl02
RSXMPRL02
Ah! It's the RSX-11M-PLUS PREGEN system, I suspect.
For people who don't know. The RSX distribution tape holds several savesets.
RSX11MPBL87 is the standard baseline system.
MPBL87SRC holds the sources. (Normally installed during the initial sysgen)
Then comes a bunch of patches to layered products.
Final saveset is RSXMPRL02, which is a pregenned system for RL02. This
is especially useful if your system disk is an RL02, as you do not have
enough room to run a SYSGEN on that disk, but it also saves some space
and speed, since you can basically install that and start using the
system without any more work. It can be customized somewhat.

I have no idea what someone have gone to the effort of splitting the
distribution tape up the way you people have found things.

Johnny
Johnny Billquist
2015-03-03 21:08:29 UTC
Permalink
Quick comments...
Post by Rhialto
Post by Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
I've attached an installation log from those above mentioned tapes
done on SIMH just a short while ago. As can be seen they are Y2K
Ah, with a quick looks I see 2 differences: you use a different tape
device (I used ms1: -- I had the 2 tapes mounted at the same time), and
you specify csr and vector numbers. I'll try later which of the two
makes the difference.
attach tm0 BB-J0830-01.M01_RSX11M+_V4.6_1999.tap
This would be the full system.
Post by Rhialto
attach tm1 BB-J0830-01.L01_RSX11M+_V4.6_BRU_1999.tap
This is slightly weird, as the normal RSX distribution of V4.6 is just
one tape that holds both BRUSYS and the distribution.
Post by Rhialto
and I found some logs of what happened for me before
(with a bit of cut and paste to insert a recent output of /dev).
$ ./pdp11 rsx.ini
PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: af713b78
Disabling XQ
sim> boot tm
RSX-11M/RSX-11M-PLUS Standalone Copy System V04
RSX-11M/RSX-11M-PLUS Standalone Configuration and Disk Sizing Program
/CSR=nnnnnn to change the default device CSR
/VEC=nnn to change the default device vector
/FOR=n to change the default magtape formatter number
/DEV to list all default device CSR and vectors
Enter first device: /dev
Device CSR Vector CSR Status
------ ------ ------ ----------
DB 176700 254 Not Present
DK 177404 220 Not Present
DL 174400 160 Not Present
DM 177440 210 Not Present
DP 176714 300 Not Present
DR 176300 150 Not Present
DU 172150 154 Present
MM FOR=0 172440 330 Not Present
MS 172522 224 Present
MT 160000 320 Not Present
MU 174500 260 Not Present
Hit RETURN and enter date and time as 'TIM HH:MM MM/DD/YY'
Post by Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
run bru
BRU -- *WARNING* -- Tape label error
I/O error code -3
BRU -- *WARNING* -- Volume not a backup tape
BRU -- *WARNING* -- Rewind error
I/O error code -3
Try MS0: instead. That would, I suspect, work fine, since that tapes
contains both the BRUSYS system (which you booted), and the full
distribution after.

The BRU tape, which was separate in older systems, held only the BRUSYS
image, which you booted. And then you needed to switch tapes to the
distribution tape, to restore from.

The taped named _BRU would not be holding the actual distribution, but
only the BRUSYS image.

Johnny
Rhialto
2015-03-03 21:40:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johnny Billquist
Post by Rhialto
attach tm0 BB-J0830-01.M01_RSX11M+_V4.6_1999.tap
This would be the full system.
Post by Rhialto
attach tm1 BB-J0830-01.L01_RSX11M+_V4.6_BRU_1999.tap
This is slightly weird, as the normal RSX distribution of V4.6 is just one
tape that holds both BRUSYS and the distribution.
Hm weird, since going by the file sizes, the L file is the larger one,
and not bootable.

11M BB-J0830-01.M01_RSX11M+_V4.6_1999.tap <-- booted off this one
30M BB-J0830-01.L01_RSX11M+_V4.6_BRU_1999.tap <-- contains the string
***THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A HARDWARE BOOTABLE SYSTEM ***
near the start

I actually tried booting it once, and it then prints the string.
Post by Johnny Billquist
The BRU tape, which was separate in older systems, held only the BRUSYS
image, which you booted. And then you needed to switch tapes to the
distribution tape, to restore from.
Seemingly that is still true with these files despite different names.
Of course the pdf I have is for installing 4.3 and calls the boot tape
BRUSYS.
http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/rsx11/RSX11Mplus_V4.x/2a/AA-H431H-TC_RSX-11M-PLUS_4.3_System_Generation_and_Installation_Guide_Jan90.pdf

I wonder why the M tape is so large; applying "strings" to it shows lots
of stuff including Macro-11 source files.

Could it still be, like that manual suggests in section 2.2.1 on page
2-5, that it is indeed "BRUSYS Standalone Copy System and Layered
Product Corrections"?

Oh, still haven't had much time to look at Kermit :(

-Olaf.
--
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert -- The Doctor: No, 'eureka' is Greek for
\X/ rhialto/at/xs4all.nl -- 'this bath is too hot.'
Johnny Billquist
2015-03-03 21:49:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhialto
Post by Johnny Billquist
Post by Rhialto
attach tm0 BB-J0830-01.M01_RSX11M+_V4.6_1999.tap
This would be the full system.
Post by Rhialto
attach tm1 BB-J0830-01.L01_RSX11M+_V4.6_BRU_1999.tap
This is slightly weird, as the normal RSX distribution of V4.6 is just one
tape that holds both BRUSYS and the distribution.
Hm weird, since going by the file sizes, the L file is the larger one,
and not bootable.
Weird stuff indeed.
Post by Rhialto
11M BB-J0830-01.M01_RSX11M+_V4.6_1999.tap <-- booted off this one
30M BB-J0830-01.L01_RSX11M+_V4.6_BRU_1999.tap <-- contains the string
***THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A HARDWARE BOOTABLE SYSTEM ***
near the start
I actually tried booting it once, and it then prints the string.
I suspect that second tape is not bootable then. I wonder where these
tapes came from...? They do not seem to be the original distribution tape.

To make things clear, tapes and disks which are not bootable actually
have a boot block, which only prints that message to the console, and
then halts the cpu.
Post by Rhialto
Post by Johnny Billquist
The BRU tape, which was separate in older systems, held only the BRUSYS
image, which you booted. And then you needed to switch tapes to the
distribution tape, to restore from.
Seemingly that is still true with these files despite different names.
Of course the pdf I have is for installing 4.3 and calls the boot tape
BRUSYS.
http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/rsx11/RSX11Mplus_V4.x/2a/AA-H431H-TC_RSX-11M-PLUS_4.3_System_Generation_and_Installation_Guide_Jan90.pdf
Yes. V4.3 was distributed on two tapes. But the BRUSYS tape is really small.

It don't look like the tapes you have match a proper distribution. The
"smaller" tape file do seem to have a BRUSYS image on it, but probably
have some other stuff as well, based on the size of the thing.

The "large" tape seems to have a full system, but exactly what is in
there, I have no idea.
Post by Rhialto
I wonder why the M tape is so large; applying "strings" to it shows lots
of stuff including Macro-11 source files.
Could it still be, like that manual suggests in section 2.2.1 on page
2-5, that it is indeed "BRUSYS Standalone Copy System and Layered
Product Corrections"?
I don't think so. Sounds more like someone did a backup of a just
installed/booted system on tape...
Post by Rhialto
Oh, still haven't had much time to look at Kermit :(
No worry. :-)

Johnny
Bill Cunningham
2015-03-03 20:12:29 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vorländer, Martin" <***@pdv-systeme.de>
To: <***@trailing-edge.com>
Cc: "Bill Cunningham" <***@suddenlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 2:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Simh] Getting rsxs to run on the pdp11 emulator
Post by Vorländer, Martin
Post by Bill Cunningham
Is there an instruction sheet anywhere for simh to load the rsx OS I
think it's rsx-11m to use with the pdp11 simh emulator?
I once found http://home.earthlink.net/~n1be/pdp11/PDP11.html
but haven’t yet had the time to try and follow the instructions.
That's what I'm looking for. But how does one set up the pdp11 with
simh. I think there's the best pdp11 emulator. Of course there are others.

Bill
Sergey Oboguev
2015-03-03 20:31:41 UTC
Permalink
There is a couple of publicly accessible system running RSX-11M+.

***************

The first one I know of is located in Novosibirsk and runs
RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6 BL87.

Some days it is executed by SimH, other days by Ersatz-11.

To access,
telnet rsx.pdp-11.org.ru

Then log in as
HEL GUEST/ (note the slash before empty password field)

Web page (in Russian):
http://pdp-11.org.ru/~form/ctakah.html

To get an account or for other inquiries contact ***@pdp-11.org.ru.

Login screen reports the date as 4-MAR-15, so the system must be Y2K aware
at least to the extent of "mostly running".

***************

Another one is hosted in IL, but the owner seems to be in MA.

http://www.dbit.com

telnet rsx.dbit.com

Specifically, if you want to plug your old dusty Unibus or Q-bus card
into a PC, knock there.
Bill Cunningham
2015-03-03 20:53:20 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sergey Oboguev" <***@yahoo.com>
To: <***@trailing-edge.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Simh] Getting rsxs to run on the pdp11 emulator
Post by Sergey Oboguev
There is a couple of publicly accessible system running RSX-11M+.
***************
The first one I know of is located in Novosibirsk and runs
RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6 BL87.
Some days it is executed by SimH, other days by Ersatz-11.
To access,
telnet rsx.pdp-11.org.ru
That russian site is very nice
Post by Sergey Oboguev
Then log in as
HEL GUEST/ (note the slash before empty password field)
http://pdp-11.org.ru/~form/ctakah.html
Login screen reports the date as 4-MAR-15, so the system must be Y2K aware
at least to the extent of "mostly running".
***************
Another one is hosted in IL, but the owner seems to be in MA.
http://www.dbit.com
telnet rsx.dbit.com
This one I can't quite get to.
Post by Sergey Oboguev
Specifically, if you want to plug your old dusty Unibus or Q-bus card
into a PC, knock there.
Johnny Billquist
2015-03-03 21:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sergey Oboguev
There is a couple of publicly accessible system running RSX-11M+.
[...]

Mim.Update.UU.SE. Just telnet to it. Login with guest/guest

You can also access that machine as http://madame.update.uu.se/, or with
ftp as ftp://madame.update.uu.se/

It runs under E11, is running RSX-11M+ V4.6, and have all kind of services.

(The reason for the different name for telnet compared to other stuff is
that I still haven't finished a native telnet server for it.)

Mim is also sortof a hub for all of HECnet...

Johnny
Jon Elson
2015-03-05 04:23:58 UTC
Permalink
From: Sergey Oboguev <***@yahoo.com> To: Dennis Boone
<***@msu.edu>, SIMH <***@trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re:
[Simh] Regarding "Cutler THE father of VMS" myth Message-ID:
<***@web184302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Post by Sergey Oboguev
VMS team had to make design choices within the constraints of the state of
compiler technology, hardware technology/costs, and the requirements of
market competitiveness.
Looking back, it is very clear that VMS designers went to extreme lengths
to ensure a system runnable very efficiently on a resource-constrained
hardware.
Yes, we had a /780 with only 256 KB of memory. One Friday
afternoon after the service
window would have been closed by the time somebody could get
out to our
location, a memory board died. I diagnosed the problem, and
pulled one of the
memory boards. Wrong one, pulled the other one, and the
machine came back
up. One of our users had a BIG batch job to run over the
weekend, a huge
finite element simulation. Well, amazingly it ran on 128 KB
of memory!

Jon
Nelson H. F. Beebe
2015-03-23 13:57:03 UTC
Permalink
There is more on the history of Dijkstra's P and V notation
for semaphores here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semaphore_%28programming%29
...
The canonical names V and P come from the initials of Dutch words. V
is generally explained as verhogen (`increase'). Several explanations
have been offered for P, including proberen for `to test' or `to try,'
passeren for `pass,' and pakken for `grab.' Dijkstra's earliest paper
on the subject gives passering (passing) as the meaning for P, and
vrijgave (release) as the meaning for V. It also mentions that the
terminology is taken from that used in railroad signals. Dijkstra
subsequently wrote that he intended P to stand for the portmanteau
prolaag, short for probeer te verlagen, literally `try to reduce,' or
to parallel the terms used in the other case, `try to decrease.' This
confusion stems from the fact that the words for increase and decrease
both begin with the letter V in Dutch, and the words spelled out in
full would be impossibly confusing for those not familiar with the
Dutch language.
In ALGOL 68, the Linux kernel, and in some English textbooks, the V
and P operations are called, respectively, up and down. In software
engineering practice, they are often called signal and wait, release
and acquire (which the standard Java library uses), or post and
pend. Some texts call them vacate and procure to match the original
Dutch initials.
...
I recently released a bibliography of Dijstra's works, and works about
him, here:

http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/bibnet/authors/d/dijkstra-edsger-w.bib
http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/bibnet/authors/d/dijkstra-edsger-w.html

The two files look identical in a browser, except that the HTML form
has live hyperlinks. The top-level index

http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/bibnet/

provides more information about the bibliographic coverage of the
BibNet Project, and also how to mirror the collection, or subsets
thereof.

It may have been Dijstra's 1968 Communications of the ACM article
(entry Dijkstra:2002:SMSb)

The Structure of the "THE"-Multiprogramming
http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/363095.363143

that first made the P/V notation known to the English-reading world,
in the appendix, where he writes
...
A process, "Q" say, that performs the operation "P (sem)" decreases
the value of the semaphore called "sem" by 1. If the resulting value
of the semaphore concerned is nonnegative, process Q can continue with
the execution of its next statement; if, however, the resulting value
is negative, process Q is stopped and booked on a waiting list
associated with the semaphore concerned. ...
A process, "R" say, that performs the operation "V (sem)" increases
the value of the semaphore called "sem" by 1. If the resulting value
of the semaphore concerned is positive, the V-operation in question
has no further effect; if, however, the resulting value of the
semaphore concerned is nonpositive, one of the processes booked on its
waiting list is removed from this waiting list, i.e. its dynamic
progress is again logically permissible and in due time a processor
will be allocated to it...
...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 -
- University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: ***@math.utah.edu -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233 ***@acm.org ***@computer.org -
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